Ghouls'n Ghosts. Is this allowed?

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MKL

Ghouls'n Ghosts. Is this allowed?

Post by MKL » Tue Jun 19, 2001 12:30 pm

Hi, I'm new to MARP and before uploading a score I did I would like to make sure it's not achieved with a technique/strategy some (esp. the present record holders) might disapprove.
<p>

I achieved a conspicuously high score on Ghouls'n Ghosts (world) by repeating several times the last level of the second round.

<p>

I've read that "point leeching is discouraged", but I don't know whether what I did falls into this practice.

<p>

At any rate, it should be stressed that repeating the last level does NOT make you gain points more easily: on the contrary, it entails big risk.

<p>

Please let me know if my hi-score is welcome or not.

--
m_nassivera@yahoo.it

***PL***

Post by ***PL*** » Tue Jun 19, 2001 12:30 pm

This recording will probably be DQ'ed because you are not allowed to
continuously repeat levels if you have not died. You must proceed
through the game. This has been discussed for many other games and I
will add this as a general rule. Thanks for pointing it out.

--
laffaye@mail.com

Tim Morrow

Post by Tim Morrow » Wed Jun 20, 2001 12:30 pm

Please upload your recording. Many would like to see it - me for
instance :-) It sounds like your case is borderline. If you are
continually exposing yourself to risk then you can argue a case that
the inp should be accepted in my view.

<p>

Here's a flaw with I see. Consider the following. A good player plays
straight through, two rounds and finishes and gets score X. Another
player not as good, plays through, stuffs up at end of 2nd round and
has to repeat last level and gets a score Y>X simply because they
stuffed up! The poorer player now gets better leaderboard points due
to the forced repetition. Stupid. I would prefer to see the game
banned if it is marathonable or find another way of rating the game.
These sort of inconsistencies are rife on MARP.

<p>

Anyway, I believe MARP is about players showing game mastery -
submitting their best games. Best means different things to different
people. It is our chance to shine - to show off. Your recording might
not receive leaderboard points but will represent an achievement that
many on MARP can appreciate. If nothing else it will furnish proof
that the game difficulty should be bumped up or the game banned for
leaderboard points.

<p>

Cheers,
Tim

--
tmorrow@bigpond.net.au

Chad

Post by Chad » Wed Jun 20, 2001 12:30 pm

This indeed is a grey area and the inp needs to be seen. I think
leeching and repeating the level would not be in this case if you
really "play" the level out and die when there is nothing "new" to do
in that level and do not sit in a single area and scam on the same
automatic generating monsters/points, the final decision is up to the
marp masses and pat.

--
churritz@cts.com

MKL

Post by MKL » Wed Jun 20, 2001 12:30 pm

Just uploaded the .inp file (hope it works).

--
m_nassivera@yahoo.it

QRS

Post by QRS » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:30 pm

I just watched your recording, and I must bow down for your amasing
skill at that game! It is not easy do get points that way on Ghouls
and Ghost´s, and it involves a great risk.

<p>

The only bad thing about the recording is that you should have
finished it off :=) (I saw that you tried, but accidently got the
spear instead..)

<p>

Anyway, with a finish on top of this it would look even better.

<p>


Regards, and Welcome to Marp btw:=)

<p>

ps if the recording is legal or not, I let the editors decide:=)

--
qrs@telia.com

Chad

Post by Chad » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:30 pm

yeah the skill is awesome, and the fatal mistake to open a chest or
kill a pot bat next to the finishing prize was pretty nasty. I'd
have to vote not to allow this recording because you didn't finish
it, but it's a hard thing to say since the play is very well; no
sustained leeching anywhere except maybe a short repetativeness
killing a handfull of the hunchback skeletors in the spewing
staglitite level, which only gave you an extra few thousand at most.

--
churritz@cts.com

MKL

Post by MKL » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:30 pm

Thanks for watching my game. The main reason why I decided to upload
it is to raise a discussion that helps to establish the rules for
this game.

<p>

If leeching, i.e. repeating *on purpose* last level of round 2 over
and over again, is banned, then the only way to get a really high
score is to arrive at the end (or just before the half) of a level
rich in points (e.g. the 4th and/or the 5th) and sistematically die,
making it appear *accidental* (which experienced players can do). The
more lives one has at his/her disposal to do so, the higher the final
score will be.

<p>

As can be seen, this would inevitably lead to a hypocrite as well as
childish gaming behaviour: I cannot see how a player could be proud
of a hi-score achieved that way (note also what Tim Morrow says about
"score x and y").

<p>

My feeling, then, is that banning the above kind of leeching creates
more problems than it tries to solve. Fortunately, everybody will
agree that that leeching is not of the same kind as that of e.g.
Commando: it does require skill.

<p>

In view of all this, I suggest the following: the notion of leeching
should not be applied to this game, i.e. the player is allowed to do
whatever (s)he wants in order to earn points, including repeating at
will last level of round 2. However, the necessary prerequisite for a
score being considered valid is that the game must be finished: this
would be both a deterrent (my 601000 points, for instance, would not
be valid) and a challenging factor.

<p>

Let me know what you think. Regards.

--
m_nassivera@yahoo.it

Phil

Post by Phil » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:30 pm

Great skill ; but unfortunately once more, scoring of the game spoil
it : the more lives you lose the more points you get ; even before
your input, best scores were those finishing the game using a max of
lifes ... I would largely prefer to watch an input finishing the game
in 1 life only (I'm not able to do that but I'm sure you can)

<p>

Maybe we should add to all scores a bonus of 1000000 for someone
finishing the game with its last life, 2000000 for someone finishing
it with 1 life remaining .... (N+1)x1000000 for someone finishing it
with N lifes remaining ?
It would concentrate players abilities on 2 points :
*finishing the game
*growing up their "survive instinct"

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

Chad

Post by Chad » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:30 pm

yeah, that sounds good. though, they might still be able to leech
this way, if you leech zombies for ever but then die enough times at
the end of a level you will finish the game on the last life and get
1000000.

<p>

It seems like we should give a bonus of 1000000 for finishing with
out dieing, 500000 finishing with dieing once, 100000 for finishing
and dieing only three times.

--
churritz@cts.com

QRS

Post by QRS » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:30 pm

Just remember one thing guys, before you set this rule:
<p>

I have never seen anyone else beeing able to do that leeching than
MKL.

<p>

I have almost finished the game once, and I can´t do that leech:=)

<p>

Maybe you should talk with some other great ghouls player before?
Like Benjos, or Blost?

<p>

I mean it is not as simple as the GNG leech with the zombies at level
3...

<p>

just my two cents :=)

--
qrs@telia.com

Chad

Post by Chad » Thu Jun 21, 2001 12:30 pm

yeah no question, the recording is definitley skilled play and
questionably NOT leeching, just having fun with numbers.

--
churritz@cts.com

Tim Morrow

Post by Tim Morrow » Fri Jun 22, 2001 12:30 pm

I've now seen the recording in question. I admit I did lean on the
fast forward key (F10) quite a bit towards the end with the many
repititons of the final stage (2nd time through).

<p>

Firstly, Congratulations MKL on demonstrating excellent skill with
this game. You did not quite show game mastery though since you
didn't complete the game - I have no doubt you will rectify this
trifling oversight shortly :-)

<p>

Ghouls & Ghosts is a remarkably well balanced game. The game timer
forces you to move on with the game but allows good players to juice
extra points in each area before moving on. This is true for all
levels except for the last level (before Lucifer). The last level is
timed in the same way and forces you to move through the level.
However, unless you have the unique 'uber' powerup at the end of the
level it sends you back to repeat the level again - with no penalty.
And this is where the problem arises...

<p>

MKL was able to show that 'in principle' this game is marathonable.
Noone has yet demonstrated that it can be done though although MKL
has shown that you can play for an awfully long time using this
method.

<p>

The dip switch settings all provide a 'free life every 70,000' on all
difficulty settings as far as I can see. Thus a player only needs to
get 'good enough' to earn 70,00 points on average per life in the
last repeating level in order to marathon the game. A player can get
roughly 30,000 each time through the level (by hanging around until
the last few seconds shooting all enemies that appear). Thus a rate
of 2 and 1/3 last levels per life is sufficient to marathon the game.

<p>

The only decent way I can see around this problem is to reluctantly
impose 'special rules' for the game. I suggest a 'maximum number of
lives' limit. Perhaps all frees up to 70,000 but none after that
despite what the game awards. In this way you effectively have 3
lives to start with and can earn up to 3 more if you reach 70,000. In
this way mediocre players will not be effected by the rules. Good
players OTOH can go all the way and cycle the end several times if
they are adventurous enough but can't use a truckload of lives doing
it and sending game confirmer's to sleep. Furthermore, if you choose
to 'cycle the end level' then finishing the game should be mandatory
to gain leaderboard points.

<p>

Finally, in the event that someone shows that they can marathon the
game with only the 6 lives, then we can consider whether repeating
the last level should be banned and whether to impose the hardest
difficulty setting etc.

<p>

Cheers,
Tim

--
tmorrow@bigpond.net.au

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