**vote for ghouls** second try

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phil

**vote for ghouls** second try

Post by phil » Sat Dec 15, 2001 12:30 pm

First post seems to have problems ... here it is again
<p>

Well, after the big debate on Ghouls & ghosts in a previous post, and after the recent 1 million+ input on the clone daimakai (finished with only 1 life and massive repetition of last level), I think it is time to vote

<p>

I've tried to gather all proposals (tell me if I forgot one) :
(a) keep scoring at it is
(b) score + 1000000x(nb lifes left if game finished)
(c) score + 1000000x(nb lifes left if game finished except life earned in a pot)
(d) score + 1000000x(8-nb deaths if game finished)
(e) big bonus 1000000 for those who do not die at the end of finishing, and a lesser bonus 7500000/500000/250000 (for those who lose 1/2/3 lives during the game but still finish)

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

phil

Post by phil » Sat Dec 15, 2001 12:30 pm

And my vote goes to B (the easier for confirmers : only have to watch
end of inp ; and I think a finished game with 4 or 5 lives remaining
will be unbeatable with repetition of last level)

--
plamat@club-internet.fr)

MKL

Post by MKL » Sat Dec 15, 2001 12:30 pm

Phil, thanks for taking the matter up once again! I'm sorry that no
one seems to realize how important this issue is as well as its
relevance for all those games that do not have a life-bonus at the
end... This would entail a thorough revision of the scoring systems
of loads and loads of games, so this is perhaps the reason why this
issue has been passed over in silence by those in charge... On Mark
Longridge's page I once read something like "videogames are finally
an exact science"... I think that too many games are currently as far
from being an "exact science" as you can get...

<p>

Back to your proposals now: I still think the 2 rules I put forward
in that past message are the best solution, BUT for the time being I
also vote for (b), as it's better than nothing and we might refine it
in the future if problems should arise.

<p>

...BUT PLEASE, PEOPLE, DO VOTE!!!!

<p>

Michele

--
m_nassivera@yahoo.it

Blost

Post by Blost » Mon Dec 17, 2001 12:30 pm

Seems fair, i vote for (b).

--
blost@mail.com

MKL

Post by MKL » Mon Dec 17, 2001 12:30 pm

Phil, unfortunately your proposal (which I overhastily accepted) is
no longer viable because we forgot a crucial fact: the life-display
at the bottom of the screen only shows up to 4 lives and therefore if
you only watch the end of the inp file you cannot know how many lives
player actually has at the end...

<p>

Let's take an actual case for the sake of clarity, i.e. my 276,900
inp. At the end, the on-screen display shows 4 lives beside the one I
actually used. From my score you see that I MIGHT have a maximum of 8
lives left (the 3 initial ones plus those won at 30k, 60k, 130k,
200k, 270k), but since the display only shows 4 lives and since you
don't know if and how many times I died (because you haven't seen the
whole inp), you cannot draw definite conclusions: I MIGHT have died
one, two or even three times (or never, as is the case) and you
couldn't tell...

<p>

The upshot is that the inp file MUST be seen from the beginning
through to the end, so that you know exactly how many times (if any)
player has died. At this point, you may as well take notice of the
score player has made by the (first!) end of 5th level of round 2, so
that you can subtract the points undeservedly earned in the possible
repetition(s) of the level.

<p>

Michele

--
m_nassivera@yahoo.it

INNUENDO

Post by INNUENDO » Mon Dec 17, 2001 12:30 pm


Lagavulin

Post by Lagavulin » Mon Dec 17, 2001 12:30 pm

I vote b

--
darre@noos.fr

MKL

Post by MKL » Thu Dec 20, 2001 12:30 pm

"[...] and I think a finished game with 4 or 5 lives remaining will
be unbeatable with repetition of last level"

<p>

The point you're missing is that repetition of last level can give
player a very high number of remaining lives: check my new
Daimakaimura upload, where actual score is 2,224,700 and remaining
lives are 30. According to your rule b, my score should be
32,224,700... D'ya think anybody will ever beat that?

<p>

Michele

--
m_nassivera@yahoo.it

Chad

Post by Chad » Thu Dec 20, 2001 12:30 pm

I think all of the choices/proposals have a "repeating last level"
problem. Maybe just DQ a recording if it repeats the last level?
the last level never gets harder so why should stamina playing a
monotonous sequence deserve more points? and if you fu** up not
getting the magic weapon and armour which seem to appear a hell of a
lot of times, then it's your fault for not getting it the second time
around, so start the recording over again to maximize the points in
earlier levels.

--
churritz@crash.cts.com

dissolute city

Post by dissolute city » Fri Dec 21, 2001 12:30 pm

I'd say the scoring system should just be the score at the end of the
FIRST time through the final level, plus 1M * number of lives
remaining at that point.

--
mdenham@coinet.com

phil

Post by phil » Fri Dec 21, 2001 12:30 pm

Hell ... Michele, your input prooves us we all were wrong voting B ;
in fact I'm afraid scores based on remaining lifes is no long a good
choice

<p>

So I think we must reopen the debate and revote ; I had this new idea
: (f) score + 1000000x(8-nb deaths if game finished), and A REPETITION
OF LAST LEVEL WILL BE COUNTED AS 1 DEATH

<p>

What do you think ?

--
plamat@club-internet.fr

MKL

Post by MKL » Fri Dec 21, 2001 12:30 pm

Well, I’m still convinced the rules I proposed in that past thread
("GhnGh: who's the best?")) offer the most satisfactory solution...
WITH THE PROVISO THAT inp files are watched from the beginning
through to the end (no panic: we are not talking about endless
marathon games, as the rules below make them quite pointless). If the
latter condition is acceptable (note that I just don’t know how
confirmers do their job, i.e. if they are accustomed to watch the
whole inp or just its final part), read further and tell me what you
think...

<p>

I formulate the special rules as follows:

<p>

Rule 1. Player is awarded a 1 million point bonus for each remaining
life at the end of the game. The bonus life occasionally found in a
pot (the little knight icon) does not count.

<p>

Rule 2. Points collected in the iteration of 5th level of round 2 do
not count and must be subtracted from player’s final score (no panic:
this operation is absolutely straightforward, see below). Possible
bonus lives resulting from these points do not count for the 1
million bonus.

<p>

Confirmers need not watch an inp file more than once (as someone
said): ALL they have to do is take notice of how many times player
dies and how many points player has at the end of 5th level of round
2. If then player manages to finish the game (no matters after how
many iterations of 5th level), 10k points (= Lucifer) will be added.
Also, confirmers need not check whether or not player has collected
the ‘pot life’ because the 1 million bonus is directly calculated
from score: bonus lives are in fact won at 30k, 60k, 130k, 200k,
270k, 340k (ecc.). Let’s assume a player finished the game with score
215k and died 5 times, then he will have 2 spare lives at the end (7
– 5) and his definitive score will therefore be 2,215,000 (note that
the maximum amount of spare lives at the end of the game is 8: if you
never die you can get more than 270k but no more than 340k. Actually
no more than 300k).

<p>

Let’s now examine a few actual cases, starting from Olympiad winner
François Daniel’s game. His actual score is 339,900 pts. After
defeating for the first time 5th level boss in round 2 he had
296,100 pts and since he eventually managed to finish the game we
must add 10k, which gives 306,100 pts. He died 8 times and since he
originally earned 339,900 pts he must have won 5 bonus lives (he
missed the 6th for just 100 pts) which added to the 3 initial lives
give a total of 8 lives. Then, 8 minus 8 equals 0, meaning that he
will be awarded no million bonus: his definitive score is 306,100
pts. This seeming contradiction (he did have one life at the end) is
explained by the fact that he must have collected the ‘pot life’
(note that I can’t recall if he really did, but I know for sure he
did).

<p>

Blost’s score, 250,900 pts, is more straightforward: he died twice
and did not iterate 5th level of round 2. From his score I infer that
he must have collected 7 lives (including the 3 initial ones). Then,
7 minus 2 equals 5. His definitive score will be 5,250,900.

<p>

My own (currently deleted) score, 276,900 pts: I did not die nor
iterate 5th level of round 2. I had 8 spare lives at the end of the
game. My definitive score will be 8,276,900.

<p>

Michele

--
m_nassivera@yahoo.it

Francois Daniel

Post by Francois Daniel » Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:30 pm

Hi all
<p>

It seems i'm here just in time :-)

<p>

I think if we use a bonus points for life, we must apply the death
(minus points)rule. If we count the repetition of last stage, we must
apply the bonus points for life rule. If we don't count the
repetition of last stage, we don't count any new rules.

<p>

The only thing we don't like is the endless repetition, not the fact
we died more or less time than another player.

<p>

I said DQ scores for repetition of the last stage (or not count the
points for the repetitions), thats all. If not, we must apply any
other rule for all games without bonus for extra lives.

<p>

Also, I think its denaturing scoring system to add (or remove) points
for Extra lives or deaths.

<p>

Finally, why we don't use this rule : 1 life and only one by credit
without repetition of the last stage. Or only the 3 starting lifes ?

<p>

François

--
francois-daniel@libertysurf.fr

MKL

Post by MKL » Fri Dec 28, 2001 12:30 pm

Hi François,
<p>

Your post calls for a few remarks:

<p>

"The only thing we don't like is the endless repetition, not the fact
we died more or less time than another player."

<p>

MKL: The repetiton (even just one!) is no doubt a major problem. But
so is the fact that player dies more or less times because worse
player gets more points as a result of his own mistakes. Of course,
the latter problem is inherent not just to Ghouls but to any other
game that does not have a life-bonus at the end. Therefore, the rules
we are discussing here should be applied to all those games that have
the same problem as Ghouls (I think they're an awful lot).

<p>

"I said DQ scores for repetition of the last stage (or not count the
points for the repetitions), thats all."

<p>

MKL: OK, but the other problem I just pointed out would remain...

<p>

"If not, we must apply any other rule for all games without bonus for
extra lives."

<p>

MKL: exactly.

<p>

"Also, I think its denaturing scoring system to add (or remove)
points for Extra lives or deaths."

<p>

MKL: The truth is that the games without life-bonus are not suitable
for hi-score purposes. To make them suitable we have to make ad hoc
rules.

<p>

"Finally, why we don't use this rule : 1 life and only one by credit
without repetition of the last stage. Or only the 3 starting lifes ?"

<p>

MKL: This would not do, as very few people can finish the game on one
life (or three for that matter)... it would become an elitist game
and most players would be discouraged from playing it.

<p>

A real alternative is this: points from repetition are not counted
and only actual points count, without any sort of bonus. In order to
get maximum points best players will have to die on purpose in some
strategic areas. It goes without saying that best players will finish
the game on their *last* life, because they will have wasted all the
other ones to get more points. This strategy does require skill,
that's why this proposal should be taken into account. Of course,
this holds for all other games without a life-bonus at the end... The
game-finished-with-one-life attitude has no longer reason to exist
for such games. Sadly...

--
m_nassivera@yahoo.it

Mark Longridge

Post by Mark Longridge » Fri Dec 28, 2001 12:30 pm

I don't understand these arbitrary arthimetics. Why not just have it
5 lives only? Score is the score at the 5th death, same as Q*bert or
Joust. Eventually the player is going to make a mistake. The reason
the game is de-generating into a marathon is because of the endless
extra lives. Remove this and you remove the problem.

<p>

My 2 cents.

--
zero1@look.ca

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