Article Critical of Recent MAMEDevelopments

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Article Critical of Recent MAMEDevelopments

Post by Weehawk »

http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/mameover.htm

R. Belmont's response:
All of his complaints would be valid IF WE WERE COMMERCIAL SOFTWARE HE'D PAID FOR, like Windows or GT4.

Since he pays nothing and gets a great deal in return, he's just another whiny bitch.
I'll leave it without comment and let people take it whichever way they are so inclined.
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Post by mahlemiut »

He can complain until he's blue in the face, MAMEdev have no obligation to do what he says.

I'd take actual emulation of sound hardware over playing samples anyday.
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Post by Weehawk »

mahlemiut wrote:He can complain until he's blue in the face, MAMEdev have no obligation to do what he says.
That goes without saying, and avoids addressing any of the issues he raises.

:roll:
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Post by mahlemiut »

Only thing I really agree with there is the increasing "rudeness" of devs (not all devs, just a few, and some of mame.net regulars). Much better to respond to morons by not acting like an asshole back. No reason to drop to their level.
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Post by MJS »

I think he is just another guy who seems ungrateful, but deep inside he loves MAME.

Some decisions of mamedev might upset us, but in the long term we realize it was the best for the project. And if they realize they took a wrong decision, they can always go back to how it was before (it has happened in the past). Besides, we can always use an older version.

You know what... I would love to see his face when a new version of MAME is released that emulates a game he has forgotten! :lol:
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Post by Weehawk »

mahlemiut wrote:Only thing I really agree with there is the increasing "rudeness" of devs (not all devs, just a few, and some of mame.net regulars). Much better to respond to morons by not acting like an asshole back. No reason to drop to their level.
Heh...I would question his assumption that these games currently running at 5 or 6 fps will be run at full speed by the hardware available about 5 years from now.

It seems to me that improvements in processor speed have leveled off the last couple of years to a degree that it might not happen in our lifetimes.
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Post by The TJT »

mahlemiut wrote:Only thing I really agree with there is the increasing "rudeness" of devs (not all devs, just a few, and some of mame.net regulars). Much better to respond to morons by not acting like an asshole back. No reason to drop to their level.
Agreed. Seems to get more harsh over the time at mamenet forums. Must be because same kind of issues are repeated over and over again.

"It's our(mamedevs)project so we can do whatever we want with it"-attitude is wrong imo.

Aren't current mamedevs just one part of long chain of devs...and other people who contributed for mame several different ways ex donations, testing, info at web etc. (+original game programmers and hardware designers etc).

The article was mainly about mame going away from users, I'm sure most of the time it's needed for good emulation. Only single case that has had grave impact on my mental health was dropping mouse control at 720 degrees. So let 'em talk...
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Post by DRN »

I think to a certain extent he has some valid points. To be honest I'm just bitter about 720 playback being fixed and at the same time, as Tommi just brought up, rendering it completely unplayable with the new 'accurate' controlling system. But hey, I don't want to become another 'whiny bitch' :wink:
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Post by mahlemiut »

Haze's response:
http://haze.mameworld.info/2005/08/20/death-to-nerds/

Wait a minute... Strider 2 isn't a true sequel to Strider? :)
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Post by The TJT »

Snip...snip...snip..
The article also claims we’re breaking the playability of games for the sake of accuracy, in some cases, maybe things have become less playable, 720 degrees springs to mind, but the article cites Space Harrier. Space Harrier is a strange selection to make for this argument, the game is emulated better than its ever been and with a minor adjustment to the controls in the configuration menu (reducing the auto-centre speed to 0) its as playable as its ever been. For somebody who claims to have devoted so much time to reconfiguring games I fail to see the real issue here.
...snip...snipp
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Post by Malibu »

MAME's accuracy is a good thing. Emulated sound is nice, but samples aren't bad to have in the meantime while sound emulation is still being worked on. As for games like SF Rush- I think we'll probably need 8-12 GHz to run them properly.

I never delete any older MAME zip files myself. An older version came in handy when Hyper Duel had stopped working at one time.

If I were one of the MAMEDEV guys dealing with moron moaners, I'd just fight fire with ice by ignoring them. If someone doesn't like how a ZN-1 game runs in MAME, there's Zinc. Rave Racer too sluggish? Just grab Viva Nonno. Is your CPU not even able to run CPS stuff? Go with Nebula.

I'm grateful to see a lost gem like Recalhorn unearthed by the MAME team. We were robbed when Taito decided to shelve the game- and they didn't even sell rights for a console port (Saturn would've handled it nicely).
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Post by Ahigh »

I just happened across this post and wanted to add from the developers standpoint. While I was working on San Francisco Rush, I intentionally did everything I could to make it as difficult as possible for the Mame developers to emulate Rush 2049. I honestly hope it is never emulated.

Rush 2049 still earns hundreds of dollars a week in the arcade, and the earnings have never significantly fallen off.

Plot out Donkey Kongs earnings on a chart, and you'll see that as soon as the colecovision came out, that game didn't earn as much in the arcade. And colecovision wasn't even that good a port, really.

I'm not accusing anyone of playing mame as a replacement to going to the arcade and supporting new coin-op development. But I know for a fact that I do that myself.

But so long as I continue to make coin-op games, I will attempt to do all that I possibly can to make things more difficult to emulate under Mame. I expect that any other coin-op developer would do the same if they stopped to think about the long-term effects of emulation on the success of coin-op games in general.

But in all the debates about Mame, I rarely see any consideration for how Mame affects the demand on new coin-op products. As much as I love Mame myself, I wish there was no such thing.

So far as an "arcade-perfect" port of San Francisco Rush: no such thing exists. You'd need a lot of hardware to achieve it. Taking out the force feedback alone turns the entire game experience to a lame excuse for an arcade driving game. Just ask any operator who sees the effects on earnings from a non-working force feedback steering wheel.

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Malibu wrote:MAME's accuracy is a good thing. Emulated sound is nice, but samples aren't bad to have in the meantime while sound emulation is still being worked on. As for games like SF Rush- I think we'll probably need 8-12 GHz to run them properly.

I never delete any older MAME zip files myself. An older version came in handy when Hyper Duel had stopped working at one time.

If I were one of the MAMEDEV guys dealing with moron moaners, I'd just fight fire with ice by ignoring them. If someone doesn't like how a ZN-1 game runs in MAME, there's Zinc. Rave Racer too sluggish? Just grab Viva Nonno. Is your CPU not even able to run CPS stuff? Go with Nebula.

I'm grateful to see a lost gem like Recalhorn unearthed by the MAME team. We were robbed when Taito decided to shelve the game- and they didn't even sell rights for a console port (Saturn would've handled it nicely).
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Post by zlk »

Ahigh wrote:
But in all the debates about Mame, I rarely see any consideration for how Mame affects the demand on new coin-op products. As much as I love Mame myself, I wish there was no such thing.
I quit playing arcade games over 10 years ago. There weren't any arcades around, and even now there still aren't any arcades nearby to play the games. After I discovered mame, I became interested in arcade games again. Since I started playing mame, I have purchased 15 pcbs to play in my home. Whenever I see a game I like, I buy it.
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Post by The_Pro »

Most games nowadays find themselves on the consoles way before they would ever show up on MAME. The Rush series is an excellent example, Crazy Taxi also comes to mind with 4 consoles covered and sequels. Plus my understanding is that the more recent games are not worked on immediatly, there's a couple years moratorium.

People go to arcades nowadays because of the diffrent experiences offered there that can't be emulated such as force feedback steering wheels, moving vehicles and light gun games. Also for competion on fighting games and the latest shooters. There will always be those who go there just because they prefer the arcade experience but those numbers are dwindling as are the arcades themselves.

The hundreads of dollars still being made from Rush? Either they fall into the above groups or they are simply casual players, MAME does nothing to deter these people. Making a game harder to emulate just makes the MAME team's life harder for no reason.
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Post by Malibu »

Ahigh wrote: Plot out Donkey Kongs earnings on a chart, and you'll see that as soon as the colecovision came out, that game didn't earn as much in the arcade. And colecovision wasn't even that good a port, really.
Not one home version of it really was close. Both the NES and Coleco versions lacked a level. Frankly, I thought those two ports were complete filth. I thought the Atari 1200 XL version was better for its having all the levels. Still there were some noticeable faults in it.
Ahigh wrote: I'm not accusing anyone of playing mame as a replacement to going to the arcade and supporting new coin-op development. But I know for a fact that I do that myself.
I do go to arcades still, but what I'm honestly missing are the shooters like Raiden III- my only encounter with that game came from the PS2 import. If a retro compilation comes out with any games I like on it, I buy that.
Ahigh wrote: But so long as I continue to make coin-op games, I will attempt to do all that I possibly can to make things more difficult to emulate under Mame. I expect that any other coin-op developer would do the same if they stopped to think about the long-term effects of emulation on the success of coin-op games in general.
I think the CPU speeds of newer arcade machines will take care of that. Chihiro is 733 MHz. Sega Lindbergh (3 GHz) and Taito Type-X (2.5-2.8 GHz) I can't see being emulated for a good while. Even with MAME around, the games will still enjoy a good exclusive run in arcades since no computer currently on market can handle them with MAME. I don't think there's a computer out there that can take Rush or most other 3D polygon racers at a playable frame rate.
Ahigh wrote: But in all the debates about Mame, I rarely see any consideration for how Mame affects the demand on new coin-op products. As much as I love Mame myself, I wish there was no such thing.

So far as an "arcade-perfect" port of San Francisco Rush: no such thing exists. You'd need a lot of hardware to achieve it. Taking out the force feedback alone turns the entire game experience to a lame excuse for an arcade driving game. Just ask any operator who sees the effects on earnings from a non-working force feedback steering wheel.
You're not getting the tilting cabinet of an After Burner or Power Drift playing in MAME either. Playing PD in the arcade with the deluxe sitdown version is a blast- when my arcade had that 12 years ago, I gave it more than a few handfuls of tokens. Now R-360 looks cool, but I have to admit I'd likely get nauseated on that. These things do kick the experience up a notch.

Now MAME is nice to have for older titles that you have a snowball's chance of seeing in arcades or in an official console port.

Today most arcade titles hit the consoles before MAME like The Pro said. Psyvariar? Giga Wing Generations? Castle of Shikigami 2? PS2's got 'em.

That new After Burner 4 on the Lindbergh interests me and I hope some place nearby gets it. When Out Run 2 hit, I rushed to the arcades to play it every week or two. The fact that the first one was in MAME didn't quell my desire for this one. Lately I've been playing Target Terror here in my nearby arcade.

I do have a few PCBs myself- mainly some shooters like Grid Seeker, Darius Gaiden, Gekirindan, and the more recent Ketsui, especially since these are games I've had no luck finding in nearby arcades.

Rather than MAME affecting demand for new arcade products, I think it's the lack of arcades in some places. I watched three Putt-Putt Golf & Games locations in my area go kaput over the last several years- probably due to mismanagement. The owner of the last surviving location wanted to retire, so he sold it out to some younger couple. Unfortunately these new folks let the once-prosperous location go downhill. There are some arcades near me now- but noticeably fewer. I think the PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox would be a bigger rival to the present-day arcades than MAME.
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