Archive these games -topic

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby The TJT » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:43 am

Phil Lamat wrote:
***PL*** wrote:Tabletop - REMOVE ALL --OR -- REMOVE Backgammon, Chess, Go, Othello

???????????
These are pure strategy, 0 % luck.
Chess is known as "king of all games"

:)

Phil, they are board games, not video games.

btw, cheating at chess would be too easy... no certain way to tell if one is using a chess machine on the side.

Thanks Pat for the good work.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Kale » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:52 am

The TJT wrote:
Kale wrote:I still don't understand why Ryu Kyu is banned from competition:

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/*ryukyu
http://replay.marpirc.net/r/*ryukyud

This game is legit, even if it uses cards it requires proper skills to be mastered.


How do these skills differ from other card games? What makes it a video game instead of a card game on computer?


The layout
https://youtu.be/u2NPlzO4ZYY
It's a puzzle game, involving reaching stage quotas out of poker combinations.
The fact that it uses cards instead of puyos/blocks/whatever doesn't matter, it IS a videogame and I'm pretty sure I don't even need to explain why.

Also, What's the current situation/logic with Mahjong?
All Mahjong should be asterisked... it's no video game more than the already archived card games; no hand-eye coordination required.


Apart from the fact that I strongly disagree with tabletop banning on MARP, mahjong is a completely different league than "cards" games.
It requires planning/fast math/lateral thinking, and knowing the strat required to beat a specific flavour (i.e. Super Real Mahjong completely different than Hyper Reaction afaik).
I'm totally interested in seeing jong stuff beaten here, and atm personally working towards 1cc-ing SRMP4.

On the other hand and as stated previously, I agree in banning MEDAL/BET type mahjong games, just because they falls into the gambling category and they are unentertaining to play and watch (read: CPU cheats and a lot).

PS: hand-eye coordination is one of the skills for being good at videogames, but it's definitely not the only one.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby ***PL*** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:43 pm

The TJT wrote:Baby Pac shouldn't be archived imo. If played within the special rules it's perfectly playable and a fair Pac-Man game although rather difficult without the pinball simulation.


Baby Pac-man is currently considered a fully mechanical pinball, which I agree with you it is not.

*babypac -> babypac "Baby Pac-Man (set 1)"
*babypac2 -> babypac2 "Baby Pac-Man (set 2)"
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Novice » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:56 am

please finish all 20round of ryukyu.
i think no one has succeed.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Haze » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:24 pm

The TJT wrote:
Haze wrote:
PP. wrote:We 're talking for deck cards.

Meanwhile I saw that "Baby Pac-Man" was archived, while games like "Super Duper Casino (California V3.2)" remain in their position...


Well yes, Baby Pac-Man is a Pinball Hybrid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEX7TqjW3nU

You can trigger all the mechanical score parts without playing anything, of course it gets archived.

Baby Pac shouldn't be archived imo. If played within the special rules it's perfectly playable and a fair Pac-Man game although rather difficult without the pinball simulation.

It was already discussed here:
http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15349

I think Pat archived it accidentally because of the "category" it was in.


the 'Special Rules' still mean you're not really playing Baby Pacman tho, the scores you're getting are in no way comparable to scores you'd get on a real machine because half the game is missing. In that sense it's a broken game, and I see no point in competition on broken games. If MARP is to appear as a legitimate site then it shouldn't be keeping scores on games that don't work properly in emulators, and it most certainly doesn't work properly in an emulator.

Incomplete emulation when it comes to gameplay mechanics not being fully intact, or visual issues that give you an advantage should instantly disqualify any game from MARP competition. I'm not arguing there is no skill involved here (there is) I'm arguing it plays nothing like the actual arcade game in it's current form, and MARP is about arcade competition. For example, if MAME had a bug whereby the original pacman only played the first level over and over again, you surely wouldn't keep scores on it because players wouldn't be experiencing the full / real game. How is this really any different?

As for card games, 'tetris style' (like Ryu Kyu) or otherwise, and even Mahjong games (non-gambling) obviously they're fully legitimate games. As long as they're emulated properly and they require skill to play / skill to obtain good scores on then why would MARP not allow them? I know some people seem to think a game is only a game if it's an action game, but we all know that isn't true.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby The TJT » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:23 pm

Kale wrote:mahjong is a completely different league than "cards" games.

Not really, can be played with physical tiles/cards and luck is a factor, you can play strategically perfect and still not pass it because the wrong tile appears beneath... Sort of like Solitaire.

PS: hand-eye coordination is one of the skills for being good at videogames, but it's definitely not the only one.

It is the one and only skill which defines a video game. Off hand, I can't think of a single inp of mine which doesn't have hand-eye coordination involved.

It's true that on video games good tactics/strategy/thinking is important but that applies to all games in general.

Novice wrote:please finish all 20round of ryukyu.
i think no one has succeed.

Maybe that's because success depends on Lady Luck rather than Mr Hisa.

Haze wrote:the 'Special Rules' still mean you're not really playing Baby Pacman tho, the scores you're getting are in no way comparable to scores you'd get on a real machine because half the game is missing. In that sense it's a broken game, and I see no point in competition on broken games.

I can assure you that the video game portion works just as the original.
MARP, btw, has always allowed competing on games which are not fully working but are still playable.

If MARP is to appear as a legitimate site then it shouldn't be keeping scores on games that don't work properly in emulators, and it most certainly doesn't work properly in an emulator.

Legitimate compared to what? Does Twin Galaxies allow Mahjong submissions?

Incomplete emulation when it comes to gameplay mechanics not being fully intact, or visual issues that give you an advantage should instantly disqualify any game from MARP competition. I'm not arguing there is no skill involved here (there is) I'm arguing it plays nothing like the actual arcade game in it's current form, and MARP is about arcade competition.

I think you're mistaken on MARP... MAME is played at home, with varying controls.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I sense a sort of 720° emulation logic here... Mamedev changed the controls to match original machine - which unfortunately meant that it was impossible to play with mouse any more. Unless you have original cabinet at home and manage to somehow hack its controls to work with PC. But hey 720° emulation is arcade-perfect now - and unplayable.

For example, if MAME had a bug whereby the original pacman only played the first level over and over again, you surely wouldn't keep scores on it because players wouldn't be experiencing the full / real game. How is this really any different?

So why emulate Babypac in first place since the emulation in this case can never match the real machine...

As for card games, 'tetris style' (like Ryu Kyu)

It's not really Tetris style at all, there's no hand-eye coordination involved at all. The appearance is deceptive and just because you place the cards from top down doesn't make it Tetris-like.

I actually played a very similar solitaire game as a kid. The only thing which separates Ryukyu from that card game is that there's a timer (which I don't think adds much pressure) and you can see some cards up front. Also the filling logic of the 5x5 square was a bit different.

Basically a same card game but with a timer. And I'm not certain if the timer even gets challenging at some stage... I bothered to play only couple test games.

So I'm very hesitant to call it a video game. It's a card game played on computer with the extra addition of timer. It depends on strategy & luck, as does the original card game... the best way to score high was to trust your luck and hope for royal flushes etc.

As long as they're emulated properly and they require skill to play / skill to obtain good scores on then why would MARP not allow them?

Because they test entirely different set of skills than video games. You can be great at checkers and terrible at video games. The leaderboard should be about video game competence... not about how much you like mahjong, imo.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby giro-X » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:18 pm

The TJT wrote:
PS: hand-eye coordination is one of the skills for being good at videogames, but it's definitely not the only one.

It is the one and only skill which defines a video game. Off hand, I can't think of a single inp of mine which doesn't have hand-eye coordination involved.

It's true that on video games good tactics/strategy/thinking is important but that applies to all games in general.


If it is true that tactics, strategies and thinking apply to all games, then they apply ALSO to video games. As long as luck isn't the absolute factor, I don't see why you should archive an entire genre - then discussion on singular cases is another story.
What defines a game as videogame, that is the "video" part. Hand-eye coordination is what defines YOUR conception of a videogame worth of consideration.


If that's the selfish game we're playing in there, then ok, I would also agree on Kale's opinion that BET mahjongs are boring and unfair with casuality. But even I admit this is pretty selfish opinion.

I'm sure I could add something about the piece of discussion I've missed in the last months but I'm pretty sick of reading that all...

EDIT: in fact... there is. And it's about off topic, whoo hoo.
So why emulate Babypac in first place since the emulation in this case can never match the real machine...

First lines of MAMEDEV.org wrote:MAME's purpose is to preserve decades of software history. As electronic technology continues to rush forward, MAME prevents this important "vintage" software from being lost and forgotten. This is achieved by documenting the hardware and how it functions.

Software, TJT, MAME emulates all software.

EDIT 2: I'm really outdated on facts. I just saw the big new removals. New... September. Jeez that's so long I haven't read stuff...
Phil Lamat wrote:This is getting absurd, all Othellos archived, gfire2 archived (I've spent so much time to finish this one).
Gundealr/primella archived ?? why ? because in puzzle/card you've "card". Basically it involves same gameplay than tetris (maybe more difficult).
Or next step is to archive puzzle games ?

And all this without any vote ?

I'm afraid of vote because TJT clearly shows that tastes can override facts, and if we put anything under a vote, imagine the horde of hate-votes coming for Mahjong (unless you were speaking of a vote exclusively for editors). On the other side, I agree this is absurd, archiving Othello, Chess, Puzzles with cards, (some of) Quiz, this doesn't sound right at all. First the rule about 100% luck factor is added, then this happens. :?
And nobody can say I'm being selfish there. Only thing I submitted scores for among those genres I cited is one only japanese quiz game, and I did submit that because, aside the trick of learning answers in time, there's tons of ways to influence the score and I did my best to maximize it. Never I will complain for it being archived, I admit it's a borderline case, plus it's always there and who cares if it doesn't help towards the leaderboard I don't care much about. I would be much more disappointed instead if I had the best run on those NeoGeo quiz games in English and they got archived together with the real scum of quiz games.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Novice » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:23 am

DEFCON=7
The TJT wrote:
Novice wrote:please finish all 20round of ryukyu.
i think no one has succeed.

Maybe that's because success depends on Lady Luck rather than Mr Hisa.

Talking to person who can understand the puzzles.
(or great challenger.)
In short,It's unrelated to you.
please ignore human's talk. you are not an object
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby The TJT » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:08 am

giro-X wrote:If it is true that tactics, strategies and thinking apply to all games, then they apply ALSO to video games.

Isn't that what I just said.

The idea is that all games include tactics but merely having tactics doesn't make a game a video game.

As long as luck isn't the absolute factor, I don't see why you should archive an entire genre - then discussion on singular cases is another story.

Then why did we archive card games...

The idea for archiving an entire genre is because we can not discuss every game separately inside a genre of hundreds of titles.

I don't see much difference between solitaire the card game and mahjong... both are based on luck and tactic of removing cards/tiles from tactically optimal positions thus freeing cards/tiles "beneath".

Once you learn the correct tactics then the game becomes entirely a game of luck. The one who lucks out the most gets the first spot.

What defines a game as videogame, that is the "video" part. Hand-eye coordination is what defines YOUR conception of a videogame worth of consideration.

Then why did we archive solitaire... it's a game played on 'video' as well, and is not based purely on luck.

MAME's purpose is to preserve decades of software history.

Sure, sure... and being able to play the game is just a fortunate side effect... if you believe that I've got a bridge to sell... :)

In any case, Babypac is perfectly good for competition.

This is achieved by documenting the hardware and how it functions.

Software, TJT, MAME emulates all software

Hardware actually, mame emulates the hardware.

The age old counter argument is that schematics are the best way to 'document' this hardware, if documentation is all that they want. But we digress...

I'm afraid of vote because TJT clearly shows that tastes can override facts, and if we put anything under a vote, imagine the horde of hate-votes coming for Mahjong (unless you were speaking of a vote exclusively for editors). On the other side, I agree this is absurd, archiving Othello, Chess, Puzzles with cards, (some of) Quiz, this doesn't sound right at all. First the rule about 100% luck factor is added, then this happens. :?

I like for example chess a lot, and especially chess puzzles. Still I don't think chess is a video game.
Do you?

Speaking of biases, no offense but I'm pretty certain that the only reason Mahjong games are not archived is because Phil likes them. Along the years he has gathered a handful of disciples as well.

Maybe Mahjong games should have a separate leaderboard. Add cards, chess etc there too.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Kale » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:11 am

I don't see much difference between solitaire the card game and mahjong... both are based on luck and tactic of removing cards/tiles from tactically optimal positions thus freeing cards/tiles "beneath".


There's some confusion here:
so far we've talked about taisen mahjong aka player against CPU.
solitaire mahjong is a completely different genre, and while I'm not a fan of them that doesn't mean they aren't worth to my eyes. Also they have like ... 1-5% of luck factor?
Also I have no idea about the solitaire cards being banned or not, and afaik they are like 5/10 games total emulated so far.

The idea is that all games include tactics but merely having tactics doesn't make a game a video game.


So when I play a SRPG I'm not playing a video game?

Maybe Mahjong games should have a separate leaderboard. Add cards, chess etc there too.


No matter your algorithm, an all-around leaderboard idea is going to fail for reasons.
Wanted to make it with scalable points? Then people will mass upload shitty inps to anything.
Wanted to give most priority to 1st places only? Then Mouse Attack is worth same value as Battle Garegga.
Or a game with 1 parent/clone sets vs. 14 for that matter.

Splitting leaderboard by genre is likely for the best BUT again it requires modifications to the underlying SQL database and actual assignment work of the 4000+ existing MARP DB romset entries.
To not speak about finding Zwaxy first off :|
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Chufoglu » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:15 am

PS: hand-eye coordination is one of the skills for being good at videogames, but it's definitely not the only one.

It is the one and only skill which defines a video game. Off hand, I can't think of a single inp of mine which doesn't have hand-eye coordination involved.

It's true that on video games good tactics/strategy/thinking is important but that applies to all games in general.


Civilization or Advance Wars are not videogames? Turn-based strategy videogames are videogames without hand-eye coordination. Videogames are defined for video.

A game with 100% luck factor must be archived for lack of interest. But even this games are technically videogames.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Haze » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:47 pm

there is an element of 'luck' in many video games, sometimes the challenge is dealing with that luck.

I think Smash TV is often cited as a game where if you don't get the right luck then you don't stand a chance.

Gambling card games etc. don't involve luck so much, it's a predetermined result. They don't really involve proper skill either (they give you a chance to lose, if you're really bad, so the next player benefits, but that's about it)

Non-gambling card games involve a mix of skill and luck, like other video games.

Quality of the game design determines more if a game is worth playing, or is based too heavily on luck.

However quality of game to player and quality of game to manufacturer are different things. Arcade owners want credits to end quickly, so even in a lot of traditional games they can quickly become 'unfair' and give you lots of 'bad luck' if they want to try and force another credit out of you, that's the nature of the industry, games ended up being designed around that too.

Still don't understand why anybody has a hard time believing the MAME line about documenting stuff for the future too rather than it being simply about playing the games. Have you *seen* some of the things that are supported in the latest versions? If anybody thinks we emulated a 1980s cash register because we thought it would be fun for somebody to play then I have to question their sanity. We emulated it because we could.
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby The TJT » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:11 am

Kale wrote:There's some confusion here:
so far we've talked about taisen mahjong aka player against CPU.
solitaire mahjong is a completely different genre, and while I'm not a fan of them that doesn't mean they aren't worth to my eyes. Also they have like ... 1-5% of luck factor?
Also I have no idea about the solitaire cards being banned or not, and afaik they are like 5/10 games total emulated so far.

Yes, I was referring to solitaire mahjong.
I don't know how vs CPU mahjong differs.

That's of course part of the problem... people who bother to learn all mahjong symbols etc may have a motive to keep the titles within LB competition, so that their effort hasn't been 'in vain'.
I haven't heard anything about solitaire mahjong being asterisked either...

Are there any vs CPU mahjong titles with western symbols so I could test them... I'm not interested in going to calligraphy/origami/whatever courses before playing the game... Kurosawa, Kobayashi, Mizoguchi, Wakamatsu etc are enough for me.

And this of course...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fsZZA8VspM

So when I play a SRPG I'm not playing a video game?

You got me there. Indeed RPG is a videogame type which doesn't require hand-eye coordination... I assume, haven't played hardly any. Guess I'll have to complement "hand-eye coordination" with "pattern recognition" for the VG definition... although even that is a stretch for text only RPG.

However, are there ANY RPG games in mame, and do they award LB points... and should they?

There sure are hella lotta mahjongs...

Chufoglu wrote:A game with 100% luck factor must be archived for lack of interest. But even this games are technically videogames.

Yeah, technically...

Haze wrote:Non-gambling card games involve a mix of skill and luck, like other video games.

See: Solitaire.
Still not a real video game.

I don't see point with leaderboard comparison between games of this type and, say, Tron.

If anybody thinks we emulated a 1980s cash register because we thought it would be fun for somebody to play then I have to question their sanity. We emulated it because we could.

What is this game called? Mahjong Daisakusen...?
:P
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Postby Kale » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:19 am

The TJT wrote:That's of course part of the problem... people who bother to learn all mahjong symbols etc may have a motive to keep the titles within LB competition, so that their effort hasn't been 'in vain'.
I haven't heard anything about solitaire mahjong being asterisked either...


This argument doesn't make any sense whatsoever
To my eyes it's exactly the same as learning fighting motions.
Or am I supposed to use just normals for those?

Also it's not even that hard:
Code: Select all
一 1 Ichi
ニ 2 Ni
三 3 San
四 4 Yon
五 5 Go
六 6 Roku
七 7 Nana
八 8 Hachi
九 9 Kyû


There are mnemonics to read those, also taisen mahjong put them in order so you eventually get these out by playing.
Also fwiw you need at least 100/200 hours of training to get any good at those and it isn't a made up number: it's how much it took me to beat Mahjong Fight Club for Nintendo DS.
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