tar's Saturn recording

[Weehawk]

actually, LN2 is precisely right.

How so?

I read the thread you pointed to and didn't see anything pertaining to my question. Why is a 2/3 majority required here? If I were Pat, if anything, a 2/3 majority would be required to allow the technique, as it is pretty clearly in violation of a standing rule.

How the question in the vote is phrased doesn't alter that, in my mind.

[Q.T.Quazar]

???

How so?

I read the thread you pointed to and didn't see anything pertaining to my question. Why is a 2/3 majority required here? If I were Pat, if anything, a 2/3 majority would be required to allow the technique, as it is pretty clearly in violation of a standing rule.

well, yes. that's exactly what you quoted from LN2 in your previous post.

[Weehawk]

???

How so?

I read the thread you pointed to and didn't see anything pertaining to my question. Why is a 2/3 majority required here? If I were Pat, if anything, a 2/3 majority would be required to allow the technique, as it is pretty clearly in violation of a standing rule.

well, yes. that's exactly what you quoted from LN2 in your previous post.

But his point was that he thought that, the way the question was worded, that a 2/3 majority would be necessary to ban the technique, even though he thought it should have been the other way around.

I thought that you were saying that he was right in that a 2/3 majority was necessary to ban.

If you're saying that a 2/3 majority is necessary to allow, then I understand.

[LN2]

...because that is how the voting has been done for many other "exceptions" to the rules. To pass bans on leeching for others games required 2/3rds in favor of the ban.

I have pointed out in the past that the default is excessive leeching especially in a case like this or naughty boy should already be banned in the general rules...so you really need 2/3rds to allow the leeching.

The rules actually only "discourage" leeching...and say it's banned for some games. That actually impies it is ok by default to leech your butt off except in cases where it has been banned....but many will not like it....and to ban a leeching technique for a game requires a vote to do so...which then requires 2/3rds to pass.

We have 7 "no" votes now. I just don't get it. This isn't gaming to play a game like this. It's amazing other than dskys who has been honest saying he didn't even watch the inp file etc. is the only "no" vote to comment.

All the others haven't commented. I'm guessing it's safe to assume tar is another one of the "no" votes since he was the one to first submit an inp showing this leeching technique...and he thinks by voting no he will keep his leaderboard points for the game.... muhahaha....fat chance of that if this leech is actually allowed.

I see 5-10+ making 24+ hour runs at the game and submitting scores where it gets to a point the game is archive so NO ONE gets points for this game.

IMHO by voting "no" here you are actually voting "yes" to totally removing this game from competition. It's amazing previous games doing this quite easily passed banning similar techniques though.

[Abbe]

When I started this thread I never imagined it reaching a 5 pages. To me, it was a crystal clear case of leeching. The poll was just technical necessity to get this particular case as a special rule. (If I understand the rules.) But what do you know?

I have to admit though, that it has been very entertaining to see the subject shifts in different directions. From tar's Saturn game over Hyper Sports and leeching in general to voting procedures.

Anyway, I don't see why this vote has to be passed by 2/3 of the majority. If I understand the rules page correctly a vote is passed by a majority if it doesn't go against a standning rule. Since there is no rule concerning leeching techniques in Saturn, the 2/3 clause doesn't apply here.

3. All votes will be passed if it achieves a majority vote of the general public with the exception of a vote going against a standing rule (for example, all games will be one credit in length), then it must be passed by a 2/3 vote of the general public.

I did miss that the poll should only run over 7 days, though. This has been corrected and voting booths will be closed after the weekend.

[Weehawk]

The rules actually only "discourage" leeching...and say it's banned for some games. That actually impies it is ok by default to leech your butt off except in cases where it has been banned...

Rule 2.f. states: (emphasis added)

Point or life leeching is strongly discouraged, and banned on some games, as described in the banned techniques list. You cannot continuously gain points without some degree of risk and you must keep moving to complete a level.

I cannot infer from that that "it is ok by default to leech your butt off except in cases where it has been banned". It merely allows for some room for judgement as to what applies and what doesn't.

Anyway, I don't see why this vote has to be passed by 2/3 of the majority. If I understand the rules page correctly a vote is passed by a majority if it doesn't go against a standning rule. Since there is no rule concerning leeching techniques in Saturn, the 2/3 clause doesn't apply here.

Quote:

3. All votes will be passed if it achieves a majority vote of the general public with the exception of a vote going against a standing rule (for example, all games will be one credit in length), then it must be passed by a 2/3 vote of the general public.

I agree. There is no specific rule regarding this technique, and if anything, allowing the technique goes against the standing, more general rule.

[JoustGod]

I never gave it much thought at the time, but I feel that the wording may be the biggest problem for this issue. I know it's been mentioned before. The way it stands now (where the minority can actually gain their goals without having a majority consensus) is like saying Ralph Nader should have gotten the U.S. presidency based on the fact that Al Gore and George Bush never got 2/3 votes in the last presidential elections. Very strange indeed...

Perhaps careful wording may avoid this in the future. As it stands, rules state that leeching of this kind is unacceptable. In order to overturn the current rule on this issue, then it should require a 2/3 vote to gain that goal...not the other way around. I understand the objective of the poll's creator, but unfortunately some others may have not.

[QRS]

"You cannot continuously gain points without some degree of risk and you must keep moving to complete a level"

On the other hand these games fits into this description....

I think it is time for us to look through the rules, maybe make things more clear to the public etc. I will talk with my fellow editors about this.

QRS

[Q.T.Quazar]

But his point was that he thought that, the way the question was worded, that a 2/3 majority would be necessary to ban the technique, even though he thought it should have been the other way around.

I thought that you were saying that he was right in that a 2/3 majority was necessary to ban.

If you're saying that a 2/3 majority is necessary to allow, then I understand.

my point was that if the poll had been phrased differently in the first place, there wouldn't be this sudden confusion. but, as stated in the other thread, we have no rules or precedents set for this kind of thing, so someone makes up whatever vote they want with minimal detail and all hell breaks loose.

now there's ANOTHER vote that just went up on the MegaTech games when almost no-one has gotten/tried/submitted on these yet. i dont' even know how to get the MegaTech games workingyet and someone has already posted a vote.

this is crazy.

[Weehawk]

my point was that if the poll had been phrased differently in the first place, there wouldn't be this sudden confusion

Wait a second....

Isn't the phrasing of the question in your poll about the leeching in Cosmic Chasm substantially the same?

Maybe you're right.. we should be more careful about who we let start polls around here.

[Q.T.Quazar]

it isn't and it is (as my old phil. prof would say).

for the purposes of the vote's outcome, it is. i was trying to follow the precedent. i asked a number of questions on MARP before evn posting, and only posted after the saturn vote went up.

[tar]

leech , peach , reach ,each ,breech , teach , speech
we lose the vote fair and square jtc
nice inp for slither , 104000. great gonna watch it
already viewed your saturn

[Weehawk]

leech , peach , reach ,each ,breech , teach , speech

Don't forget beach, bleach, preach, and screech.

already viewed your saturn

You're kidding. I was there and I didn't view it.

[LN2]

my point was that if the poll had been phrased differently in the first place, there wouldn't be this sudden confusion.

Understood....but when I started a similar poll in the past I used the "other wording" you are suggesting for this poll and Chad or Barry had posted "nice try"....knowing I had phrased it that way so it wouldn't take 2/3rds just to uphold what I felt was a general MARP rule anyway....but others didn't see it that way.

So I think QRS is right....time to reword some of those MARP general rules so they have more meaning.

It's clear from "events" last winter and spring that many statements in those general rules have enough loopholes where they really don't mean much.

Actually it's time to update all those types of areas of the site. Yes, I know there is a lot of work there. Perhaps we can divide it up. It shouldn't just be up to Zwaxy to do it. Updates to the rules....the mame versions for downloading(which lists 0.37 as latest.. just a bit outdated I think...hehe) and then update the banned techniques and tricks/easter egg pages etc. as well.

Or better than a banned techniques page perhaps just a "special rules" area that lists all games that have special rules....although since you can get to this from looking at scores for each game perhaps this area isn't needed at all....so perhaps just get rid of the banned techniques page....since all that info is within special rules for the games.

I present this poll as exhibit #1. I think, as well as several others here I'd bet, that this didn't need to be voted on and based on the general rules tar's inp be zeroed out for excessive leeching to the point it's clearly going against 2f without even needing to discuss it or vote on it.

I also agree that only editors should be able to start a poll...where we have a thread discussing it then an editor/ moderator sees there is a valid case to vote on and can edit the thread to turn it into a poll and phrase the question and responses in an appropriate manner so it's very clear what's being asked etc.

I remember a few polls that were bogus because of poor wording in the poll...or odd choices that have a couple times ended up with a special rule that makes you wonder why that rule is there.

[Weehawk]

Okay, so by the wording of the poll, tar's leeching has been banned.

Mine is OK though, right?

Seriously, I deleted it and I guess tar's should be moved to the tricks page so that he can be remembered by posterity as the pioneer of the technique. "The man who brought Saturn to it's knees."

You real Saturn players can have your game back now.