tar's Saturn recording

[Abbe]

Another case of leeching. It's an interesting technique, but it probably belongs on the tips and tricks page instead.


http://marp.retrogames.com/index.cgi?mo ... 00&tourn=0

[tar]

Good day/night Everyone, please vote No on this issue. Thank You.
Does anyone look at tips and tricks
or olympiad / knockout tournament

[QRS]

f) Point or life leeching is strongly discouraged, and banned on some games, as described in the banned techniques list. You cannot continuously gain points without some degree of risk and you must keep moving to complete a level.

[BBH]

question, tar:

Do you honestly enjoy playing the game in this fashion, and feel that this trick is a fair representation of skill?

[dskys]

question: all anti leechers

are you saying that, in an arcade environment, with the opportunity to score xmillion points, finish a game and be the 'best' by exploiting a flaw in the game, you wouldn't do it?

TJT get's away with using the NVRAM in hypersports which increases the potential score by 10's of thousands, what's so bad about proving you've beaten not only the game but the programmer too?

Consider this: in track and field, we're limited to 'one round' simply because, if you're good enough, it'll go on forever. Surely being able to play a game forever comes down to stamina - and at the end of the day, the best/longest lasting/most depressed player will win.

After all (again i refer to hyper sports) the 'no breath' cheat on swimming is allowed, but how many high scores are dependant on using this cheat? (ie qualifying on 50s swimming)...

All my point is, is that there is a very muddy line between what's accpetable play and what is not. Surely beating the game in any way should take precedent? After all, that's the only way (aside from imposing inconsistent rules) that everyone can be on a level playing field.

Adi

[Chad]

the problem with leeching is that you can score xmillions of points and NOT be the best at the game, that's where the rule comes in to kick out the scamers to reveal the real deals. btw, i haven't yet looked at this particular recording to determine if the leeching is proving you are the best or worst or somewhere inbetween :)

[QRS]

question: all anti leechers

are you saying that, in an arcade environment, with the opportunity to score xmillion points, finish a game and be the 'best' by exploiting a flaw in the game, you wouldn't do it?

Sure I will, but this is not a real arcade. Even if the rules say that it should be as close to it as possible. We need rules for leeching etc cause otherwise it will not be competitive. Or do you honestly want another recording with a score of 10 mil leeching the same way?? Things like that belongs on the trick page IMHO.

TJT get's away with using the NVRAM in hypersports which increases the potential score by 10's of thousands, what's so bad about proving you've beaten not only the game but the programmer too?

Personally I don´t like the idea about keeping the NVRAM for ANY game. If you don´t like the idea you are free to make a poll and ask the general public to change it. I will vote to disallow it. That is just me though

And yes, it is cool to show off, making tricks, find leeching spots etc. But for competition it sucks. When things like this comes up we need to discuss it or if it is too obvious that it voilates the rules of MARP we ban it.

Consider this: In track and field, we're limited to 'one round' simply because, if you're good enough, it'll go on forever. Surely being able to play a game forever comes down to stamina - and at the end of the day, the best/longest lasting/most depressed player will win.

Once again it is about competition. If MARP allows marathon recordings on Track and field, the competition is gone. Right now it takes a great ammount of pure skill to beat the nr1 score. I think Joustgod showed a marathon recording of track and field a long time ago, and after that the rules was changed on MARP. Just so it would go faster, and show skill instead of endurance and stamina. Remember that Track and field does not get any harder after 3rd or 4th loop.

After all (again i refer to hyper sports) the 'no breath' cheat on swimming is allowed, but how many high scores are dependant on using this cheat? (ie qualifying on 50s swimming)...

I´m not that good on that game, so I can´t really answer that. One thing though. It is very hard to draw a line what is cheating, tricks, bugs, leeching etc. That´s why we need to discuss it. Very often on a case to case basis. And as I said before. Geel free to make a poll or ask what the public says.

All my point is, is that there is a very muddy line between what's accpetable play and what is not.

I agree with you 100%. Remember that it is very hard to set rules for all games. If a game has a timer or don´t give extra lives etc, you might not call it leeching at all etc. Very hard to set permanent rules for all games on a rule page. That´s why a case to case basis often happens here

Surely beating the game in any way should take precedent?

Most of the time, yes, but if you find a way to (example and not related to Tar´s recording) rack up 100 lives on stage 1 and leech for 3 hours and than beat the game on the 31st life...contra if you play it without the 3 hours leeching and you have not more than 5 lives to finish the game, I don´t really call the first example a skillfull recording. It might be cool to see how it is done etc, but once again for competition it really sucks.

After all, that's the only way (aside from imposing inconsistent rules) that everyone can be on a level playing field.

Well, if you are making people to vote, and let the public decide on a case to case basis, you will find a rule for that game that most of the people want. Then you set the players on an even more level playing field IMHO.


One more thing, cause I sense some familiar answers are coming soon :=) MARP is MARP. It is not a huge demo site with recordings only for showing things. On the other hand it is not TG with everything set on pure competition. Think of it as mix of that. A site with competition wich need rules, but sometimes not as strict as TG. And it doesn´t have to be the same rules as TG either.

The main thing is that the public decides A LOT here. And that is the best thing with MARP if you ask me:)

[AL]

The no breathe 'trick' on Hyper Sports was a feature of the arcade game , so no problems there, period . Some may call it a trick , others would say a feature that consistant players found out .

NVRAM is a grey area . For Hyper Sports , it must be allowed , as it replicates the arcade machine which kept high scores , which btw was how the current 'official' World Record on this game was acheived . I believe this is TG sanctioned , so by definition ,Tommi ( TJT) didn't get away with anything . He did the right thing ( even though I didn't use it ).

As for leeching , for f**k sake cop on here . Are you saying that someone who can score 6million on Ghosts'n'Goblins ( using the Cave leech ) is the better player than someone who can finish the game using skill and ending up with an obviously lower score ? And I bet you wouldn't like to confirm an INP of that magnitude , and boredom.

With regards to T+F , I always hoped of a 'Marathon' split for this game , using a non-pause version of MAME obviously , just solely so a few of us die-hard T+F players can slug it out here at MARP.

Ye never know.....


AL

[AL]

Almost forgot . I don't think anyone used the no-breathe thing to qualify for the 50sec Swimming . Check your facts .


AL

[LN2]

I personally don't like the allowance of NVRAM for Hyper Sports.

It can be the same for the arcade also..but just resetting the machine prior to playing.

Do you allow that for many other games?

To be consistent you really would have to require some nvram be used for games that award extra points based on setting event records.

Seriously if you were playing this in an arcade the records would already be great times/distances etc. that would be difficult to match....versus with no records it's fairly easy to set records for each event and get more points for it overall.

Is TJT's inp the only one using NVRAM file there? If none of the others are using it...which IS the rule....cuz to allow NVRAM for this game I would think a special rule would need to be stated there saying you are allowed to use a nvram file for this game....and just submit the nvram file with your inp.

I see no special rule of this type...therefore by default NVRAM isn't allowed so TJT's score should be zeroed out...or discussed and voted on to get the special rule added.

[BBH]

please people, watch the .inp before voting.

Basically, what's happening is that all the enemies are lined up in a horizontal row a safe distance away vertically from the player ship. If you fly vertically the enemies will chase after you, but their bullets won't be able to hit you. When you reach the top of the screen, you "wrap" around to the bottom. Same thing for the enemies pursuing you. But since both the player and the enemies move at exactly the same speed, you can pretty much stick the game in a perpetual loop since there is no timer. All the while this is going on, there are "bonus" enemies that appear near the top-right of the screen that pose absolutely no threat whatsoever since they do not fire at you. Each of these bonus enemies is worth 1000 a pop. So all you do is keep moving vertically and waste the 1000-point enemies that keep coming out.

Once you have it setup right, there is absolutely no risk at all in keeping this going. It's actually getting it setup that's the tricky part... I'm not sure if it's reliant more on skill or luck. Either way, this happens relatively early in the game so if you screw up, so what?

Tar starts doing this around 18k (I think) and keeps leeching points until he rolls the score over at a million. At this point he stops and tries to take out the remaining enemies that have been chasing him for oh so long, but he dies. If he wanted to keep going with the leeching, he certainly could have.

Like I said, watch the .inp.

and by the way, this trick has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Track 'n Field or Hyper Sports. Where those comparisons are coming from truly baffle me.

[dskys]

Al, I wasn't having a go at you ot Tommi - just pointing out that what is 'acceptable' play in one game is obviously unacceptable in the other.

You failed on 50s swimming (so did I), but are you saying that you wouldn't have taken no breaths if you'd hit it right?

I don't play GnG so I can't comment but some would say that being able to rack up lives due to a flaw in the game is in fact a feature of the game.

Arkanoid 2 rnd 5 is definately not a bug, it's a trick consistent (to use your word) players have found. Yet it's allowed, and yet, someone who only gets to level x can beat someone who finishes the game simply by leeching this level and maxing out extra lives/points. How is that different to any other life leeching?

As for the NVRAM thing, I can't use NVRAM as I record with wolfmame. I assumed you had used it Al - simply because your 60k higher than me at the same point. I'm just crap heheh.


BBH, no, the thread had nothing to do with HS or TnF - it was about leeching (albeit in one particular inp/game) - I think my points were about exploiting flaws? in games to benefit the player and whether or not they were acceptable if everyone was allowed to use them.

Yes it's dull as hell watching someone rack up millions of points in the same place and yes, it should probably be banned in some instances, but it's not cut and dried. That's all.

[BBH]

BBH, no, the thread had nothing to do with HS or TnF - it was about leeching (albeit in one particular inp/game) - I think my points were about exploiting flaws? in games to benefit the player and whether or not they were acceptable if everyone was allowed to use them.

Yes it's dull as hell watching someone rack up millions of points in the same place and yes, it should probably be banned in some instances, but it's not cut and dried. That's all.

Okay. But which flaws of these really compare to Tar's trick?

TJT's use of NVRAM does allow for some extra points, but it's not a potentially infinite amount. And this really isn't much of a "trick" since if you were playing in the arcade, chances are there would already be some nice World Records on the machine.

Track & Field is marathonable, sure. A lot of games can be marathoned. But they at least require a modicum of skill to keep the game going and make sure it doesn't end. What does the Saturn trick require? The ability to sit there and keep flying up and hammering away at the shoot button once you get into place. The only skill (and it seems more like luck to me) is actually getting the trick started - after that it requires no skill whatsoever.

I don't know much about this "no breath" trick on Hyper Sports, but again, it doesn't sound like it's a game-breaking trick. Certainly not something that would cause you to get an infinite score, since the event DOES have to end... but the level on Saturn does not...

5 people have voted No so far? I sure hope anyone voting No has watched the recording before voting. I challenge anyone who votes No to watch the ENTIRE RECORDING at 100% speed without unthrottling.

[QRS]

Arkanoid 2 rnd 5 is definately not a bug, it's a trick consistent (to use your word) players have found. Yet it's allowed, and yet, someone who only gets to level x can beat someone who finishes the game simply by leeching this level and maxing out extra lives/points. How is that different to any other life leeching?

I fully agree with you. I don´t like that trick at all either. I have a score myself on one of the clones using that trick. I get about 1 mil on stage 5 and then I get the rest of the 600k´s all the way to stage 29-30 something. I´m very pleased with that recording (Beside the boring leeching of course , but I would be glad if that trick was banned.

Maybe we could just take the final score minus the score on level 5 and set that as the score for upload at MARP? To my knowledge there is not other leeching spot in that game. Then it would be more of a competition on that game Any opinions? Just a suggestion here.

Cheers!

[mahlemiut]

Best insomnia cure ever!