bm4thmix splits needed

[gamerya]

For now I suggest we have just the difficulty splits and let players figure out which expert course gives the most points.

Umm... if you were really great at this game...i wouldn't challenge what you just said... but the fact is, only someone who knew nothing..and i mean NOTHING about the game would post something like that. It needs ALL courses split. If you split rally games which have the same gameplay with a few different turns...and you don't split beatmania...which has different songs, different difficulties...just your no better than the usual newbie.
By the way... DEFCON = 0.00000001

[QRS]

I have to agree with BBH here. This is not about getting lb points or not. This is about having a separate entry so we can watch all the different modes etc. I don´t have much experience from these types of games, but I understand that people will probably want to watch different modes that are uploaded, instead of just the score.

[sikraiken]

Hey, BBH, I was wondering if you could (or wanted) to set up a vote to change all Normal/Hard mode scoring to Expert Mode Scoring for all Beatmania games (currently in MAME, and in future MAME versions, or a similar vote that you could think of). As you have proposed, it's obviously a better way to score and see who's the better player. I would do it myself, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do so only being a confirmer; you're an editor, so I know you are able to do it.

[DeSangre]

Hey, BBH, I was wondering if you could (or wanted) to set up a vote to change all Normal/Hard mode scoring to Expert Mode Scoring for all Beatmania games (currently in MAME, and in future MAME versions, or a similar vote that you could think of).

Hi Joey (incredible score on AX7pg anyway o_O)
I'll say that basic and hard modes are like a different game inside the game. They're ok, as long as there are splits for expert course.
If MARP tries to recreate the Arcade competitions, as bmclean said, I can't see a single good reason NOT to include a split for any expert course.
Sorry Pat, but your post seemed a bit rushed. To me it reads more or like: "Just submit the course where you can get your lower time on, make that Suzuka, Estoril or Sepang. I only need the time, I don't care what course is made that on." (Everyone would play the same course = no fun at all) Just my 2 cents.

[BBH]

Hey, BBH, I was wondering if you could (or wanted) to set up a vote to change all Normal/Hard mode scoring to Expert Mode Scoring for all Beatmania games (currently in MAME, and in future MAME versions, or a similar vote that you could think of). As you have proposed, it's obviously a better way to score and see who's the better player. I would do it myself, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do so only being a confirmer; you're an editor, so I know you are able to do it.

I was planning to, but I wanted to see if anyone else had any opinions on it first... I see that DeSangre thinks it's fine as it is.

Both systems of scoring have their positives and negatives.

The regular scoring system doesn't require any simple math to figure out. It has special bonuses that you don't get in Expert scoring, like the 3110 Perfect Bonus and the 5730 Border Bonus (note: I'm not even certain that 4th Mix has things like the Border Bonus, I saw it mentioned on the Core Remix page). It doesn't look like anyone has come close to reaching the theoretical maximum base value for a 4-song set. And it wouldn't be the maximum anyway when you factor in the special bonuses. On the bad side, this scoring system seems to encourage playing easier songs that you know you can do well on and get a lot of Just Greats. It's not worth risking playing tough songs, because of the likelihood that your scoring is not going to be as high on a hard song. Easy songs aren't as interesting, from either the player or observer's point of view.

The EX score does require a little math after the game is finished, and you lose out on the special possible end-of-song bonuses. This system makes the player try to do the hardest songs possible, or at least the ones with the most notes. Although I worry that it would just degenerate into players only playing the four songs with the most notes (or even, worse playing the same song four times in a row if All Music mode was enabled) every time, it's still possible to outscore harder songs if you can get a good percentage of Just Greats. And if hard songs are being used all the time, well... it's still more interesting than seeing the easy songs whored out at least.

So yes, I do favor the EX scoring. I'll try to start a poll soon, meanwhile I'm hoping to see the Expert courses get the splits they deserve...

[Chad]

I've never played BM but i know where pat is coming from. QRS: I would definitley want to see all the courses too. But splits aren't for seeing all the courses. They've always been for distinct types of games with in a game. And no matter how you slice it, all these things are doing the same thing with lesser or greater difficulty though with different music. I'd say keep the splits to a minimum: when the "game" changes make a split.

[Zwaxy]

Splits have always been used for just this purpose.

For example, Super Hang-On, being split into 4 for the 4 courses. The gameplay is the same for all 4, it's just a different course. In Super Hang-On the courses get longer and more twisty, but nothing really changes. It's the same with the different courses in beatmania.

I think the beatmania games should be split for each of the expert courses.

Chris.

[BBH]

For example, Super Hang-On, being split into 4 for the 4 courses. The gameplay is the same for all 4, it's just a different course. In Super Hang-On the courses get longer and more twisty, but nothing really changes. It's the same with the different courses in beatmania.

Great point, but in Super Hang-On the number of stages changes between each course... Beatmania stays consistent with 5 stages. That split I can see being justified, although one can also argue that if players want to get the highest scores they need to play nothing but the Expert difficulty.

A better example IMO would be Pole Position II. All four courses are roughly the same length. Gameplay and scoring is exactly the same, the courses just vary in difficulty. So why exactly does that game deserve to have splits for all four courses instead of being "play the course you get the most points on"?

[sikraiken]

Splits have always been used for just this purpose.

For example, Super Hang-On, being split into 4 for the 4 courses. The gameplay is the same for all 4, it's just a different course. In Super Hang-On the courses get longer and more twisty, but nothing really changes. It's the same with the different courses in beatmania.

I think the beatmania games should be split for each of the expert courses.

Chris.

Awesome example Chris.


Thanks Desangre, nice job on Beatmania.

[Chad]

polepositions are different courses, that make sense. i just wouldn't want to see a split of difficulty for hard vs expert just because the scoring is different 100s vs 100000s if the courses are using the SAME songs. But maybe this doesn't happen, haven't looked into it yet.

[BBH]

polepositions are different courses, that make sense. i just wouldn't want to see a split of difficulty for hard vs expert just because the scoring is different 100s vs 100000s if the courses are using the SAME songs. But maybe this doesn't happen, haven't looked into it yet.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Expert courses are a pre-determined set of 5 songs. On Basic and Hard mode you have total control over what songs you pick in what order (although you are a bit limited because certain difficulty songs appear only on certain stages).

It's also worth pointing out that the regular game mode and Expert courses use a different system of determining if you go onto the next stage. On Basic or Hard you have to bring the "groove bar" up into the orange/red to clear the stage. If it's lower than that at the end of the song then the game is over. Expert is a little different because the bar starts full at the beginning of the 1st song. Missing notes will still bring the bar down, but you can't bring it back up (at least, I think all the 5-Key Beatmania's are like this. In IIDX you can actually recover bar). As long as something is left in the bar at the end of the stage, you go on to the next. If the bar runs out in the middle of a song, then it's Game Over immediately. This is different because it tests your ability to get through 5 songs with minimal mistakes.

[evil_angela]

Hey - could someone fill us in on the details on how exactly Basic/Hard mode is scored? I see people saying that it would discourage hard songs in favor of easy ones. Is there a fixed maximum score for a song, say, depending on the difficulty rating of the song, similar to DDRMAX? (1 foot song has a max of 1,000,000, where a 8 foot has a max of 8,000,000) Or is there more to it? It would help all of us determine what seems like the best way to score the modes.

Also - 4th mix is already at least partially split. What about Core Remix and Complete Mix? I'd think you'd want to do the same scoring splits there, also.

BTW - I am also in favor of splits for all the courses. I'd also be in favor of splitting for double, as seeing people play that would really be impressive.

[Zwaxy]

I think it goes like this:

For each song there are 20,000 points available.

This is divided by the number of notes in the song. Suppose (to make it easy) there are 200 notes in the song, then there will be 20,000 / 200 = 100 points available per note.

'just great' notes get 100% of the available points for that note
'great' notes get 50% of the available points for that note
'good' notes get 10% of the available points for that note

so if you hit 'great' on every note in a song you'll score 10,000 and if you hit 'good' on every note you'll score 2,000.

Dividing 20,000 by the number of notes doesn't usually leave an integer value, so the scores are rounded. I'm not sure how that works, but I've noticed that I've received both 751 and 752 points in the same song for hitting 'just great'.

On top of this there are various bonuses for things like only hitting great or 'just great' for the whole song, or finishing just on the border between 'pass' and 'fail'.

Chris.

[DeSangre]

For each song there are 20,000 points available.
Chris.

Hey Zwax, make that 200,000

[Zwaxy]

Yeah, whatever.

Also, the 100/50/10% split might not be the same for all games. Maybe not even for all the songs within a game. I only looked at the scoring for one song in one game, and guessed that it's the same for all of them.

Chris.