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Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Post by MJS » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:17 pm

QRS wrote:There is really no need to prove it to someone else that you can do it. We have never had that policy on MARP (except for very special cases)
But what is the problem with that policy? Something shouldn't be allowed when it is so easy that it takes little effort to be performed. Once X amount of people prove it, the technique is banned. It sounds ok to me.

Currently how do you guarantee that people who don't know what they are talking about won't vote? With this policy if you really care about the game you wouldn't hesitate to try the new technique (and cast your vote either by allowing it or proving it is easy).

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Post by QRS » Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:57 pm

like I said earlier there is no need to prove for someone else that you can or can´t do it. Just try it out and prove it for yourself. When you feel that you have the knowledge etc ventilate your opinion. I just mean that you don´t have to beat a score using the same trick as someone else did.

You can of course never tell if someone just says he knows everything about a game just to cast his vote, but that problem will always be there. I expect from my fellow MARPers that they DO get the knowledge research etc AND look at a recording, try it out before they vote. I always do that, and I think most people do actually. If you don´t have any knowledge of the game, or don´t want to look at the recording, DON´T VOTE!! (if there is a poll) That person have nothing to add to a discussion/ vote if you ask me.

My only point is that you don´t need to put up a score showing the same things someone else has already done, just to be "worthy" to have an opinion. The knowledge of the game MUST be there (to see/try if it is easy or not), but as to see it as a must to beat person x´s score to have the right to speak about the rules etc it is pathetic. Especially when there are often clear cases of leeching/tricks that is not allowed by MARPs rules.

Remeber that we are talking about USING a special kind of trick that might be banned here, not using it to beat a special score. That´s why you (often) can say it is not allowed by looking at a recording only. There are of course special situations, and then a discussion, maybe a poll is needed.

Ok, back to work, I think I have made my point clear, and I don´t wanna repeat myself (more than I have done already!):P
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Post by LN2 » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:04 pm

MJS wrote: But what is the problem with that policy? Something shouldn't be allowed when it is so easy that it takes little effort to be performed. Once X amount of people prove it, the technique is banned. It sounds ok to me.
That's part of the same flawed thinking Novice has. You keep focusing on the difficulty to do a trick.

Whether a trick is easy or very difficult to execute has little to nothing to do with whether the trick should be allowed or not allowed in most cases.

In a few cases it might play into it, but for most it has nothing to do with it.

Like take the recent pepper2 near 13 million score. I have had an e-mail discussion with franz and he plans on removing or zeroing out the score himself....cuz he realizes that isn't an honest way to play the game.

This is a case of a bug in the code where the main enemies disappear never to return. It's not a trick that anyone seems to know exactly what triggers it. it just happens sometimes when playing.

So...play the game over and over and over until you get lucky and it finally happens for you so then you can set a 13 million score. That isn't skill based at all. Watching a player clear maze after maze with only 1 enemy that isn't even really a threat usually to your life isn't fun to watch at all and isn't a display of skill playing the game. it's just going through the motions.

franz realizes this without needing some big poll etc. He found the thread discussion about it interesting. He didn't view any part of it as a personal attack against him. It's all about integrity of playing games fairly.

I commend franz for having this integrity and respect for gaming.

It's something a couple here seem to lack or just not understand.

You don't need to be able to do a trick most of the time or prove anything to be able to make a judgement if the trick hurts the integrity of playing that game...makes it pointless to play...makes the score pointless etc.

I do agree before voting though that each person should be familiar with what the vote is actually about and watch a replay file demonstrating the trick, or leech etc. before casting their vote.

it's been seen here for a couple votes that the results were really off beacuse people just read the question and voted...without reading the discussion or watching the replay file etc. That definitely isn't fair to anyone.

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Post by MJS » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:22 pm

Fine but let's consider the following problem (again):
MJS wrote:Currently how do you guarantee that people who don't know what they are talking about won't vote?
QRS said that the problem will always be there. LN2 hopes that each person gets familiar before casting their vote. I agree with Hisa's policy because it would solve the problem.

Now the disadvantages:

1) you have to bother to perform the trick
2) sometimes you don't know how to do the trick

Any other?

Disadvantage #1: Yes it is bothering but it would guarantee that... (you know, it solves the prob). I am not saying you have to beat any score, just do the trick for a while.

To address disadvantage #2 what about using a save-state?

I understand your point of view guys... but with this discussion maybe we can improve the current rules. When I give my opinion I am trying to help.

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Post by zlk » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:57 pm

Ln2 writes:
it's been seen here for a couple votes that the results were really off beacuse people just read the question and voted...without reading the discussion or watching the replay file etc. That definitely isn't fair to anyone.
Are you sure? Perhaps you are just upset that the vote didn't go your way. 8O

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Post by LN2 » Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:47 pm

zlk, yes. I'm referring to a particular poll or 2 on banning a leeching technique.

it turned out several had voted to allow it cuz in general they aren't against leeching.

They didn't read the particulars of the case at all etc.

They just cast a vote to not ban leeching. That isn't what that poll was about at all. it was specific to an infinite leech setup on the first couple stages of the game where once setup (think tar was the one that had done it), he said you could put something on the firing key to hold it down then just walk away from the game.

Even given this several still voted to allow it. It made no sense at all cuz no one would accept a trick where you can just put something on the firing key and walk away and let it run for hours or days or weeks...until the replay file fills your HD or until your system crashes.

I didn't need to be able to reproduce what tar had done. He had provided enough information to totally judge that is no way to play a game.

Plenty of info was given in the thread to vote to ban that. Some obviously didn't bother to read the thread and just cast their vote.

MJS, care to state above what you mean by "Hisa's policy"? Do you mean require all do a trick etc. before voting? I don't understand how you and a couple others say others can't judge something just from the information and evidence provided by OTHERS. You don't need to regenerate all the evidence on your own.

If there is enough detail and information given you can totally judge it from that without having to do the trick yourself.

I'm sure you do it all the time in life.

The extra bit of "info" by doing the trick yourself in most cases wouldn't change anyone's decision. In some cases I have had to do it myself and/or watch the replay file of someone else doing it cuz the info provided in the thread isn't enough. In many cases it's not necessary to make a decision about the trick.

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Post by MJS » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:04 pm

LN2 wrote:MJS, care to state above what you mean by "Hisa's policy"? Do you mean require all do a trick etc. before voting? I don't understand how you and a couple others say others can't judge something just from the information and evidence provided by OTHERS. You don't need to regenerate all the evidence on your own.
I won't refer to it as Hisa's policy because maybe I misunderstood him.
From now on I will refer to it as MJS's policy or "my policy" :wink:

I don't know where did you get that I said you can't judge something from provided by others.
To put it short, what I said is:

"By applying my policy you will solve the problem."

The problem:
You cannot guarantee that people who don't know what they are talking about won't vote.

My policy:
To vote against (ban) certain technique you must prove it is easy to perform (vote NO and provide a recording showing that you can easily do it). To vote in favour (allow) the technique just cast your vote (vote YES).

I thought the advantage was clear... hope you understood now.

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Post by Novice » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:05 am

my policy is very simple.

IGNORE COMPLAIN.
NEVER IGNORE OPINION.

Anything words from who can not do it by onesself is not more than "complain".
all complains are from their ignorance and poor-skill.
not worth to hear. especially liar.
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Post by LN2 » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:03 am

MJS wrote:My policy:
To vote against (ban) certain technique you must prove it is easy to perform (vote NO and provide a recording showing that you can easily do it). To vote in favour (allow) the technique just cast your vote (vote YES)
yes, that clarified it...but my comment above is still valid.

Whether a trick is easy to do or not in most cases has nothing to do with whether it should be allowed or not allowed for fair game play and competition.

Your policy above seems to focus on doing it yourself to prove it's easy to do. That has nothing to do with the actual issue and vote of whether to ban a trick or not. In some cases you might find a trick is easy to do yet doesn't really affect the competition for the game so doesn't really matter if it's allowed or not....so might as well allow it. I don't vote to ban a trick simply because I find it's easy to do. I vote to ban it cuz it breaks or changes the rules of how the game is played...and makes the score competition unfair for all unless at least the tracking is split....so 1 tracking of scores playing it using that trick or technique...and another tracking playing it by the stated rules of the game.

In most cases where a technique has been banned though it's cuz to split it doesn't really mean anything, cuz many would be able to max out the score or marathon the game using the trick etc. The thrill and meaning of competition playing the game in that manner is lost...so why play it?

I agree it should be required that SOMEONE has a replay file showing the trick for all to download and view if they aren't familiar with the trick themselves. To ask that each try and successfully do the trick prior to banning it is flawed. You will end up with those that can do the trick voting to allow it...and most that would want to ban the trick, not care to waste their time playing a game to try and do a trick or if it's a trick on a later stage of the game having to learn and get good enough at the early stages to reach that spot.

...so it would be rare that any trick even if an obvious cheat of the game's rules would be banned...if ever...using your above policy.

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Post by MJS » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:40 am

LN2 wrote:To ask that each try and successfully do the trick prior to banning it is flawed. You will end up with those that can do the trick voting to allow it...and most that would want to ban the trick, not care to waste their time playing a game to try and do a trick or if it's a trick on a later stage of the game having to learn and get good enough at the early stages to reach that spot.
As I see it if you don't care to try and do the trick, you don't care about the game.
It is better that those who don't care about the game don't vote.

But in the end I guess you are right LN2... I would do anything to build the rules of my favorite games, but I guess I can't expect everyone to be a video-game freak like me! :o

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Post by Novice » Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:48 am

Hey MJS,
why not stop to waste your life time?

there is only 1 fact.
Complainer never show us something very special skill/knowledge.

If you can enjoy to waste your time ,I have nothing to say for you.
but if you do not enjoy it ,then you should see replay/play games rather than talk to worthless guy!
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Post by Novice » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:30 am

LN2 wrote:...so it would be rare that any trick even if an obvious cheat of the game's rules would be banned...if ever...using your above policy.
The macmame cheater's policy.
1 Complain if having poorer skill.
2 Laughing out if having better skill.
3 Never admit everything what I can not do.
4 If impossible to prove my skill, then write long long long long message instead. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



hehe.
generally speaking, it is very difficult to deceive the person who has much
knowledge than yours.
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Post by LN2 » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:47 pm

MJS wrote:As I see it if you don't care to try and do the trick, you don't care about the game.
It is better that those who don't care about the game don't vote.
I have done that in some cases but mainly cuz not enough information was given so I would have to play the game myself to figure it out and judge it. I'm not going to do that for a game I don't care about. When I don't have enough information then I don't vote...but in other cases evne for games I have never played still voted cuz enough information was given and/or replay file sample supplied showing the trick/technique so then I can judge and vote on that issue for the integrity of gaming competition.

It's often just a common sense thing. Anyone can see a game, and tell if the rules stated by the game are being bent or broken...or if a severe leech spot is being used etc. without having to play the game and do it themselves.

When you are playing games in a small group at home the group can decide to allow certain alternate "rules" or ways to play the game perhaps spicing it up some.

Here at MARP that can happen also....but if the vote states to not allow that then it shouldn't be allowed.

I'm sure even in playing games at home with friends you have quibbles sometimes over ways to play a game if there are variants to the ways that game is played.

Some seem to think for video games that whatever the code allows to happen should be allowed to happen cuz the code defines the rules.

That isn't the case at all cuz the code isn't perfect. In board games there is nothing stopping you from making up new rules etc. yet in most cases you don't and play the game by the rules that came with the game.

That should be the case for video games also. If you have a maze to negotiate a ball through, that's the rules of the game. To say screw that and warp through the walls of the maze defeats the purpose of the game.

it's common sense you aren't playing the same game anymore. If it's tracked separately, fine. You could have a high score track playing cameltry allowing the warp trick. The track likely would end up being archived though once 5-10+ had established the max score playing the game that way....so there is little point to even tracking that. The competition factor is lost playing the game in that manner.

One track that might be interesting would be to have 1 track that is a total time to complete the course...even allowing warps through walls. At least then the total time is something that could always be improved on....instead of being a max score no one can beat...but just tie.

It would be like a separate game/competition in that case...and that's fine by me.

I'm not sure what Novice thinks I'm complaining about when I keep stating what would be fine with me. It's mainly having each tracking on the scoreboard be a fair competition. If you want alternate methods/rules for some games fine. Track scores playing the game that way separately. To track the together isn't fair. I'm sure most would agree with that.

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Post by Buttermaker » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:58 pm

Novice wrote:write long long long long message
I'm wondering if anybody has CliffsNotes for LN2's posts.

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Post by cliff » Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:00 pm

Buttermaker wrote:
Novice wrote:write long long long long message
I'm wondering if anybody has CliffsNotes for LN2's posts.
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