ok, I understand the flaw now...and I really wouldn't even call that leeching but pure exploitation of what essentially is an oversight in the game code that allows that "repeat" circling to continue and earn points.
I agree that shouldn't be allowed. However, to force starting at level 7 isn't a good solution to this. I'll have to recheck to see what score bonus you get for starting at a higher level if any, but I remember in playing it some myself you can get some pretty good points with big combo circling of several objects at once on the first few levels. I'll have to see if you can score higher playing the game honestly like that versus forcing to start at level 7.
Don't make it like TG made Time Pilot. TG decided to set the difficulty for Time Pilot very high so it's very difficult to impossible to do the parachute leech in this game. However, it's made the game so difficult no one has even reached the UFO spaceship stage in that game the first cycle! It's a shame cuz we are missing an entire part of the game. At default the time periods get harder the 2nd and 3rd time through...so it's more worthwhile seeing it played that way...but honestly of course.
Time Pilot is essentially ruined for competition IMHO cuz even the best players at these new TG settings are only able to get around 150-180k. Great...so a game lasting 3 minutes not even seeing the UFO stage....just to avoid the issue of parachute leeching.
Plus, are you absolutely sure no one could do that leech beyond level 7? With a pin and tablet or special controller(s) perhaps someone can do it beyond level 7. You are just finding you can't do it using the mouse beyond level 7.
Please don't set rules that ruin playing Quantum the way it was designed to be played.
What if during your play though you "accidentally" get a double scoring for an object? I hope you wouldn't DQ them just for that.
Quantum leeching
Moderator: BBH
Thank you for checking it out, Rick. I feel you now understand the nature of this "problem".
For the time being, I think the higher starting level requirement is a direction to head in. It seems to be the lesser of two evils, so to speak. While we are not positive that someone could eventually overcome hurdles to leech after level 5, it does seem extremely difficult to do so. If someone proves us wrong, then we adjust from there.
I agree that it's a shame about Time Pilot. Sadly, there isn't a whole lot that can be done for that situation. It is a very subjective matter in differentiating parachute leeching and regular play. I know some examples just scream leeching...but where do you draw the line? So, as a result, TG felt it better to simply cut out that part of the game entirely. Until there is a definitive way to determine leeching versus regular gameplay for Time Pilot, this has to be the way to go...but, I digress.
For the time being, I think the higher starting level requirement is a direction to head in. It seems to be the lesser of two evils, so to speak. While we are not positive that someone could eventually overcome hurdles to leech after level 5, it does seem extremely difficult to do so. If someone proves us wrong, then we adjust from there.
I agree that it's a shame about Time Pilot. Sadly, there isn't a whole lot that can be done for that situation. It is a very subjective matter in differentiating parachute leeching and regular play. I know some examples just scream leeching...but where do you draw the line? So, as a result, TG felt it better to simply cut out that part of the game entirely. Until there is a definitive way to determine leeching versus regular gameplay for Time Pilot, this has to be the way to go...but, I digress.
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Francois Daniel
- MARP Seer
- Posts: 625
- Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 8:11 am
Hi
I'm concerned on this topic because i'm one of the firsts who make this leech. Yes this leech isn't so hard to make but it's not so easy to make it infinitely, because one little error in the mouse handling and the leech is ruined. Basides, after stage 7, it seem to me it's very difficult/impossible to make it because they're ennemies who come ever and ever in the screen.
For me, this leech is legal because it's not very long (until now), but I'll understand if we decide to forbid it.
Francois
I'm concerned on this topic because i'm one of the firsts who make this leech. Yes this leech isn't so hard to make but it's not so easy to make it infinitely, because one little error in the mouse handling and the leech is ruined. Basides, after stage 7, it seem to me it's very difficult/impossible to make it because they're ennemies who come ever and ever in the screen.
For me, this leech is legal because it's not very long (until now), but I'll understand if we decide to forbid it.
Francois
People think that its possible to do this leeching technique forever. People now also think its possible to do it after level 7. I disagree. Please make a replay showing that it is possible. Right now the most anyone can leech is 300k. It also seems that a few people can get this score. Until someone shows that this can be done indefinitely, I am not in favor of banning the technique.
I had an alternative solution for that but the TG board felt making the game virtually unplayable was better I guess.JoustGod wrote:I agree that it's a shame about Time Pilot. Sadly, there isn't a whole lot that can be done for that situation. It is a very subjective matter in differentiating parachute leeching and regular play.
My alternative was if you were going to leech parachutes or those 1500 point planes on that 1 time age, then you MUST continuously be firing at all times during the leeching.
In forcing firing at all times, you can't help but hit some enemy planes here and there so your leechijng is automatically limited and the boss plane will come out. Once the boss "plane" comes out the parachutes stop coming out.
TG felt even with this someone could still learn to leech parachutes for millions. I don't see how they could avoid getting the boss out if they were firing continuously.
Anyway, they made their decision. BTW, ALL previous scores for Time Pilot were removed.
Another way it could have been handled is by having a time limit for each era....a reasonable time limit that perhaps allows a little bit of leeching...like getting 5-10 parachutes or 5-10 of the 1500 point planes etc. but if you kept trying to leech beyond that delaying the boss coming out then you might run out of time.
this would make it a little more of a pain to review gameplay for...having to time each time era..but at least then we get to see people play the game and all aspects of the game.
Can't something similar be done for quantum? Perhaps the max score for each of those first 7 levels playing the game without this circling leech trick can be calculated/estimated and set maybe that plus 10% as the max score any replay can have after completing level 7. Any replays higher than that will be DQ'd.
Then if someone inadvertantly gets a double circle around an object(s) then odds are they will still be under that max so their game is legit.
It would be pretty easy to confirm/reject but just noting the score of each after the 7th level...and comparing to that max score set.
The bonus you get for starting on later rounds is actually very comparable to the points you would have scored had you started from level one, even if trying to maximize points by circling multiple atoms. The bonus is actually more if you only circle one atom at a time starting from level one. So no player would be losing the oppurtunity to score more points because the bonus compensates very well for the points lost by not playing the earlier rounds.LN2 wrote:I agree that shouldn't be allowed. However, to force starting at level 7 isn't a good solution to this. I'll have to recheck to see what score bonus you get for starting at a higher level if any, but I remember in playing it some myself you can get some pretty good points with big combo circling of several objects at once on the first few levels. I'll have to see if you can score higher playing the game honestly like that versus forcing to start at level 7.
zlk maybe be right after all.
Ive just uploaded a new recording for quantump. In round 3 I was advanced at once to round 4 with no apparent error during my leeching. I amassed quite a few points in this round and may have hit some kind of scoring ceiling where the game simply advances you to the next stage. There is usually a short pause after clearing a round before the next stage but in this example Im instantly taken to round 4. This may shoot a hole in the infinite theory. I urge those interested to take a look.
http://marp.retrogames.com/index.cgi?mo ... lines=9999
I also thought it may have had something to do with eliminating all of the smaller particles that orbit the larger atoms. I decided to test this theory by playing level one and eliminating every particle on screen, including the smaller orbiting particles, leaving just one large atom left. I was still able to leech it. Anyone wishing to test this theory should come to the same conclusion.
I felt that this was pertinent information to disclose, and am now undecided on allowing the technique. I feel more data is needed to reveal whether or not there is indeed a ceiling for scoring on each level. An even more convincing game would be one in which a player was advanced to the next level with other large atoms still on screen. I think such a game may be ultimately neccessary to allow continued use of this technique.
Ive just uploaded a new recording for quantump. In round 3 I was advanced at once to round 4 with no apparent error during my leeching. I amassed quite a few points in this round and may have hit some kind of scoring ceiling where the game simply advances you to the next stage. There is usually a short pause after clearing a round before the next stage but in this example Im instantly taken to round 4. This may shoot a hole in the infinite theory. I urge those interested to take a look.
http://marp.retrogames.com/index.cgi?mo ... lines=9999
I also thought it may have had something to do with eliminating all of the smaller particles that orbit the larger atoms. I decided to test this theory by playing level one and eliminating every particle on screen, including the smaller orbiting particles, leaving just one large atom left. I was still able to leech it. Anyone wishing to test this theory should come to the same conclusion.
I felt that this was pertinent information to disclose, and am now undecided on allowing the technique. I feel more data is needed to reveal whether or not there is indeed a ceiling for scoring on each level. An even more convincing game would be one in which a player was advanced to the next level with other large atoms still on screen. I think such a game may be ultimately neccessary to allow continued use of this technique.
Nevertheless, that is exactly what happened. When the last electron on the screen happened to float into your circling tracer and was eliminated, it triggered the level advance. No way in hell that was a coincidence. Apparently your further experimentation shows that this can be avoided by eliminating the electrons first and repeatedly circling the last atom when it is by itself.Dax wrote:I also thought it may have had something to do with eliminating all of the smaller particles that orbit the larger atoms. I decided to test this theory by playing level one and eliminating every particle on screen, including the smaller orbiting particles, leaving just one large atom left. I was still able to leech it
Anyway, I am more convinced than ever that this technique spoils the game.
I always started at level 9, as did Roncli in his recording, simply because the first several levels are trivial anyway. If that would prevent this technique from being used, I think that is the way to go.
John Cunningham (JTC)
His trick involved nothing more than leaving one atom floating around on the screen while circling particles that came from outside the playing area passing through your screen. As long as the single atom was left alone, you could theoretically do this ad finitum. It was a much slower leech than this current one.Weehawk wrote:I almost forgot to ask...
What was German Krol's leechy trick? I was never able to play any of those recordings.
Dax: interesting find with your latest games. Keep us posted on what other things you come across.
"Until now" being key.Francois wrote:For me, this leech is legal because it's not very long (until now), but I'll understand if we decide to forbid it.
I think Francois and Blost were the only ones dissenting. If they're conceding I don't think we need to bother with a poll, otherwise I will certainly vote for starting at level 9 for regulation play.
John Cunningham (JTC)