"The Leaderboard"

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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"The Leaderboard"

Post by Weehawk » Thu Mar 11, 2004 12:53 am

The Leaderboard...

The source of so much interest, competition, envy, deceit, controversy, enthusiasm, etc..

Personally, quite a while back it became apparent to me that I would be forced to campaign against recordings on the site which I felt were not acheived in a legitimate fashion, and I did not want to subject myself to any allegations that I could have ulterior motives relating to the leaderboard affecting my judgement. I therefore made the decision to remove myself from inclusion in the leaderboard display. I had no idea at the time that I might be Regualtion Coordinator one day, but now that I am the decision seems even more appropriate.

Since then I have been forced to ponder whether the leaderboard is a positive force at MARP overall, or a negative one. I know several members who would argue that MARP would be better off without it. Honestly, I feel that they would probably be in the minority...that most members want to have a leaderboard in some form. I have also queried Zwaxy himself, who has stated that while he is willing to implement reasonable changes, he would prefer to see the leaderboard survive in one form or another.

The only question remaining then, is what form?

Just to throw out a few personal opinions to start:

I like the formula by which the scores under first place are allotted point based on their percentage of the top score, scaled down by their placement also. That seems very sensible to me.

My main concern however, is that it gives points (however few) to so many contestants that there is an incentive for members to upload recordings of little or no interest to the community, just for the sake of leaderboard points. (In violation of MARP Rule #2)
l) Submit only games that you feel are worthy of the notice of other MARPers, owing either to personal effort, or display of skill.
I personally would like to see some sort of incentive to submit using a secure version of MAME, as we had with the alphaMAME blocking policy temporarily last year.

Some members have suggested that only confirmed scores should count toward leaderboard points.

Is the leaderboard best left as it is, or is there a way we can decide as a community to improve upon it?

All ideas are welcome.

Let the discussion begin.
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Re: "The Leaderboard"

Post by LN2 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:35 am

Weehawk wrote:I did not want to subject myself to any allegations that I could have ulterior motives relating to the leaderboard affecting my judgement. I therefore made the decision to remove myself from inclusion in the leaderboard display.
I have no problem if you show yourself on the leaderboard. personally I would like to see how you are climbing up and how many scores you have submitted now, how many first place scores etc. without having to list all of your scores through a search engine. Plus, we see you here in the forums as Weehawk. You likely won't find any scores listed for Weehawk. You would need knowledge that you are JTC on the scoreboard.

The leaderboard is the only way to see a quick summary of a gamer's overall accomplishments. By clicking or looking up their name, you have to manually count how many first places, second places etc. they have....tedious!

For example, it's nice to congratulate those who reach 50 first places and then possibly 100 first places. It's also a handy way to see what types of games a particular person excels on. Click on the first place number for Phil Lamat, and you quickly see he really really really likes mahjong and is apparently quite good at it. :P
Since then I have been forced to ponder whether the leaderboard is a positive force at MARP overall, or a negative one. I know several members who would argue that MARP would be better off without it.
Yes, there are...but those are the ones making the most noise and complaining about it. Those that like the leaderboard or are indifferent to it likely haven't stated anything or very little.

Those that don't like the leaderboard can easily ignore it. Why they feel they need to try and destroy it I will never understand cuz you can easily ignore it and not have it be part of your MARP experience. It's nice for stat freaks like me that like looking at overall numbers and averages etc. as well as having the handy links to view all the first place scores by a gamer etc.

I like seeing the leaderboard though...especially when I was new to MARP...cuz I could quickly see who the better gamers were based on #first places etc. and easily view just those first place scores by clicking on that number on the leaderboard.

There is no easy way to navigate to stuff like that without the leaderboard.

Does the leaderboard and how the point system works perhaps need an overhaul or change? Perhaps. I know the most often made complaint is where we see certain members submitting tons of just average type scores just to get a few leaderboard points for each and climb up the leaderboard. If you have set a score you truly are proud of or is a high score relative to others, then it's worthy of submitting. Just an average score almost every single gamer can get without much of a problem isn't a score that really should be on the scoreboard IMHO...and most certainly not earn any LB points.

There are a few easy ways to possibly address this.

1) only assing LB points to the top 3 or top 5 places. lower places get ZERO LB points regardless of score.

2) assign LB pts to top 3 or 5 as we currently do, but then ONLY award LB pts to lower places if they are at least 50% of the top score. This would be more fair for games where all the scores are close.

3) get rid of the LB point tracking on the leaderboard(still show it for listings cuz you can quickly see rough percentage of high score that way) and show it based on the placing points.. the 10-3-1 system only...with perhaps an average of that also which currently isn't shown.

Maybe there are other possibilities here also. I think the floor is open to suggestions here. Will those that complain about the leaderboard have any ideas for improving it?
I personally would like to see some sort of incentive to submit using a secure version of MAME, as we had with the alphaMAME blocking policy temporarily last year.
alphamame and blocking were stopped cuz there is no "secure" version.
It's a false sense of security. If alphamame blocking kept being used, an application to convert regular mame replay files to alphamame replay files was going to be made. With that, all security is lost.

I figure it this way....someone who really wants to cheat will find a way to do so regardless of "security" measures in place. Look at commercial games...all the most popular competitive games have a [k] to allow cheats etc. The game software is updated to detect for that...so then a new [k] to allow for the cheating again is quickly released. id software fought that war for several years with the quake series. A new version would be released with anti-cheat stuff and within 1-2 weeks a new [k] r data files etc. would be released to reallow the cheats to be used and go undetected by the host server.
Some members have suggested that only confirmed scores should count toward leaderboard points.
This would be reasonable if all scores got the same treatment for being confirmed. That isn't the case though. Scores done on different platforms with no or fewer confirmers or with odd variants of mame might not ever get confirmed. Others even with official mame versions have been on the scoreboard for years and still not confirmed....that might playback just fine once a confirmer checks them out.

I think you still have to give the gamer the benefit of the doubt and assume the submitted score is legit until proven otherwise. To do the opposite would be negative and possibly discourage some from even participating.

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Post by DRN » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:28 am

Aaaah the old leaderboard. Personally I don't think MARP would have half the submissions than it does now if it the leaderboard didn't exist. I don't care what people say, everybody cares about the leaderboard, even if it's just a little bit. Would some of the people here had submitted 200, 500 or however many recordings if it didnt exist?

I agree with Rick for the first '3 or 5 places then no points' rule. Too many 14th place, one pointers being submitted these days, it's obviously just to keep crawling up the board.

I pretty sure the leaderboard was scored differently in the early days of MARP, perhaps some of the older members here can shed more light on this.
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Post by zlk » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:00 am

I don't really care about the leaderboard. However, it may be a good idea to change to the 10, 5, 1 point system for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place recordings. That way people would only sumbit replays that follow marp rule #2. There would be no incentive to submit random replays just for leaderboard points.

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Re: "The Leaderboard"

Post by destructor » Thu Mar 11, 2004 6:57 am

Weehawk wrote:Some members have suggested that only confirmed scores should count toward leaderboard points.
Don't agree. I don't like when I can't see immediately points in LB for my scores (example Deca on TG :wink: ) and time confirming score can be very long sometimes.
Weehawk wrote:I like the formula by which the scores under first place are allotted point based on their percentage of the top score, scaled down by their placement also. That seems very sensible to me.
Fully agree with you.

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Post by LN2 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:30 am

zlk wrote:I don't really care about the leaderboard. However, it may be a good idea to change to the 10, 5, 1 point system for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place recordings.
Hmm, perhaps a 10-5-3-1 system for 1st through 4th places would be even better....or 10-7-5-3-1...even better! That's your top 5!

There are many games where 4th and 5th are still excellent skill replays so worthy of getting something.

Then change the top 3 page to top 5. ...and have the leaderboard show #places of 1st through 5th for each and the total placing pts based on 10-7-5-3-1.

As stated above, the change here should be mainly to address those that submit tons of 10th place type scores that get only a few LB pts for each game. It seems like in some cases those gameres only play the game a couple times and submit whatever score they get. I would hardly call that even an effort on their part to establish what you could call a personal high score. I'd bet in many cases if the person only played the game 5 more times they would beat their posted scores.

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Post by Buttermaker » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:25 pm

DRN wrote:Personally I don't think MARP would have half the submissions than it does now if it the leaderboard didn't exist.
And we wouldn't miss those one bit.
I don't care what people say, everybody cares about the leaderboard, even if it's just a little bit.
I'm not listed on the leaderboard and would love to see it go away.
Would some of the people here had submitted 200, 500 or however many recordings if it didnt exist?
No, and that would be better.
I pretty sure the leaderboard was scored differently in the early days of MARP, perhaps some of the older members here can shed more light on this.
The scores for the old leaderboard system (10-3-1) are still there. Here's what the Top 10 would look like using the old system. The number in parenthesis is the current leaderboard position.

Code: Select all

1  (1) BBH         3467
2  (2) Phil Lamat  2856
3  (4) Rick Carter 1648
4  (6) diabolik    1313
5  (8) Kale        1230
6 (14) Destructor  1095
7 (19) Novice      1067
8  (7) Donut       1045
9  (5) Q.T.Quazar  1009
10(10) essekappa    949
LN2 wrote:There are many games where 4th and 5th are still excellent skill replays so worthy of getting something.
Somebody who finishes 4th in an Olympic track race had an excellent performance but that still doesn't get him a medal or the honor of standing on the podium at the award ceremony.

Since we won't get rid of the leaderboard I want uploading scores against MARP rule #2 to be discouraged as much as possible. That's important after a new MAME release for example when getting leaderboard points is very easy.

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Post by LN2 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:53 pm

Buttermaker wrote:I'm not listed on the leaderboard and would love to see it go away.
if you don't care about it then why does it matter if it stays or goes for you? Just ignore the leaderboard and never check it then. It's that simple. Besides the leaderboard aspect to it it provides some information and links you can't get otherwise.

I'll say this...with you not showing yourself on the leaderboard I have not ever checked your list of scores. If you were on the leaderboard and in the top 25-50 I likely would have checked your scores at some point to see what games you like to play and which you appear to be more skilled at playing.
Would some of the people here had submitted 200, 500 or however many recordings if it didnt exist?
No, and that would be better.
I agree with that aspect that the leaderboard shouldn't encourage and award lower score recordings. In the essence of rule #2 I think an editor could technically go through the scoreboard and delete tons of these insignificant, generally lacking of skill replays. That's all from the leaderboard scoring though....not because of the presence of the leaderboard. Changing the scoring system of the leaderboard will fix this aspect...no need to get rid of it.
Somebody who finishes 4th in an Olympic track race had an excellent performance but that still doesn't get him a medal or the honor of standing on the podium at the award ceremony.
Maybe they don't get that from the Olympics, but if you have an athlete from a country that only is able to send a few to the Olympics and that person gets 4th place they will likely be a hero in their home country....and get awards, metals etc. Just participating is often enough...remember the first Jamaican bobsled team? They barely knew how to even race a bobsled much less actually compete at a world class level. ...yet they still were allowed to participate in the Olympics representation their country. They became heros in a way for that effort and determination to try as well as courage to humiliate themselves in front of the world.

Actually, I think they do still get a medal or at least a ribbon from the Olympics also....but just not a bronze, silver, or gold metal...but metal for participation and what they did achieve and what events they participated in.

Also, within the 'box score' of the Olympics, their time and stats will still be shown.
Since we won't get rid of the leaderboard I want uploading scores against MARP rule #2 to be discouraged as much as possible. That's important after a new MAME release for example when getting leaderboard points is very easy.
Yes, I agree with rule #2 as well...but perhaps not as strict about it as others.

A change in point system as noted above would address this. It's also likely in a few cases even without a leaderboard you would have a couple members that seem to have a goal of submitting a score(any score they get playing the game once or twice) to MARP.

It looks like for example that those of the jvrm team are competing against/with each other and just use MARP to store their inps etc. and perhaps don't even care about the MARP leaderboard with regards to them against most others, but only them against others in their clan/league. Sure, perhaps you say that clan/league should make their own private web site for that type of competition then instead of using MARP. Perhaps, but maybe they don't have a web site.

Also, there is no total points system anywhere on the MARP site except on the leaderboard. If you wanted to quickly compare 2 gamer's scores, without the leaderboard you would have to do it all manually.

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Post by Buttermaker » Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:11 pm

LN2 wrote:if you don't care about it then why does it matter if it stays or goes for you?
Because I like MARP a lot and want it to be the best site it can be.
Just ignore the leaderboard and never check it then.
I can ignore it all I want but that doesn't stop people from breaking rule #2.
Besides the leaderboard aspect to it it provides some information and links you can't get otherwise.

I'll say this...with you not showing yourself on the leaderboard I have not ever checked your list of scores. If you were on the leaderboard and in the top 25-50 I likely would have checked your scores at some point to see what games you like to play and which you appear to be more skilled at playing.
When I check the latest uploads or the scores for a particular game and see a player I wanna know more about I click his name. That lists all of his scores. If I want to see only his first places I then scroll down to the search engine and select "worst position to show: 1".
Maybe they don't get that from the Olympics, but if you have an athlete from a country that only is able to send a few to the Olympics and that person gets 4th place they will likely be a hero in their home country....and get awards, metals etc. Just participating is often enough...
You just proved my point. If you have a great recording on 4th place you will be a hero (hehe) whether you get leaderboard points for it or not. Great recordings come to MARP because they're great and not because the uploader wants to move up the leaderboard.
Also, within the 'box score' of the Olympics, their time and stats will still be shown.
And if somebody checks the scores for a certain game he will see everybody's scores for that game.
It looks like for example that those of the jvrm team are competing against/with each other
No, they have their own scoreboard.
and just use MARP to store their inps etc.
They upload their inps to their own newsgroup: news://news.zoo-logique.org/jeuxvideo.records.mame. I'm not sure about the retention of that server though so they do use MARP to store inps I guess. But still, if the inp violates rule #2 it shouldn't be at MARP.
Also, there is no total points system anywhere on the MARP site except on the leaderboard. If you wanted to quickly compare 2 gamer's scores, without the leaderboard you would have to do it all manually.
What does comparing overall scores show though? Different players play different games. Why compare their overall scores? It's about the competition on individual games.

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Post by LN2 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:31 pm

Buttermaker wrote:I can ignore it all I want but that doesn't stop people from breaking rule #2.
Don't blame the leaderboard for that.

However, rule #2 to me doesn't read as a rule requiring to only submit "masterful" display of skill replays. It states that as a goal...like a mission statement. It doesn't require all submissions be masterful.

Also, especially nowadays, if I do want to watch a replay for a certain game, I might have to watch the 8th place one cuz all the higher places are all done with version 0.35 or older which I don't have the rom set for that game for that version so can't view them. I can still view that 8th place one though so do. I do this for some games just to see exactly what it is you are supposed to do cuz for some games from the attract mode you have little to no idea. :P In those cases I'm not looking to view an ultimate master play the game...but just see anyone play the game to see how it's played.
If all you show were the top and the best of the best, then to watch replays for many games here you would need 0.35 or older. I'd bet many just use one of the latest versions and if they watch replays watch those only from the most recent versions....not watch the greatest and most masterful replays.
When I check the latest uploads or the scores for a particular game and see a player I wanna know more about I click his name. That lists all of his scores. If I want to see only his first places I then scroll down to the search engine and select "worst position to show: 1".
Many have said the search engine isn't as clear as it could be. Now that I have used it a lot and understand the categories for a search it is quite useful...but as a new member I found most of it very confusing. I would just refer to the leaderboard to then check scores of gamers etc.
You just proved my point. If you have a great recording on 4th place you will be a hero (hehe) whether you get leaderboard points for it or not. Great recordings come to MARP because they're great and not because the uploader wants to move up the leaderboard.
Look at platforms and mame versions used. macmamers wouldn't mind at all seeing some other macmame users replay files and scores even if they were good for only 5th-10th place or even lower for many games cuz for many games there are NO macmame replays to view...so anything would be "great".

There is also the aspect of version number which I already addressed above. Most players won't want to get 0.35 and the rom sets for that version and the special dlls etc. needed for that version just to view a replay file when there are other, perhaps not quite as masterful ones done in wolf79 for example.

There are 2 things from the macmame forums I got as feedback from the macmame community of why they don't participate at MARP.

1) The replays at MARP don't play correctly in macmame.

2) They feel they can't compete with the scores posted there....so won't bother even trying.

#1 is certainly largely true. #2 is a shame. Odds are that turns away many PC gamers as well that could set high scores for a few games each.

What you want to do Buttermaker would result in turning more away. Is that good just so you aren't annoyed by seeing mediocre or so-so scores submitted here? That all sounds like a personal issue for you more than a MARP issue.

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Post by Caseh » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:08 pm

I think it's ok as it is. I've only been using this site for 2 months and i can't really see what the problem is. Fair enough, you get some players who will submit scores just for 1 or 2 points which seems pointless to me, and this is clearly a waste of time for confirmers as its just plain boring.

I, myself will admit that to climb the leaderboard, I will check who is 1-2 places above me, check what they have 1st place in and try to top it. Is that considered as wrong? If you can top someones score then it deserves to be submitted. Even if I have never seen that game before I'll still have a go at it and can't really see a problem with it, from where I'm sitting it encourages competition.

At the end of the day, anyone can check a players percentile of scores submitted. I have players who are above me who have like 300 scores submitted outside of the top 3 and like 5 at 1st place but I still know who the best players are (BBH for example or M.T.). Besides, you get some players who get such a crazy highscore, that even when you get 2nd place you barely get 10pts for it but you still have 2nd place. :D

Anyway, its just my opinion and if it changes it changes, won't really bother me too much. Also i'm slightly drunk at tyhe moment, if u choose to ignore this post then so be it :)

rah

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Post by The TJT » Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:08 pm

Yeah, I have few suggestions for leaderboard improvement...Infact I have thought better leaderboard scoring system for a long time now, since I found out current is not good.
I hope they are technically doable, I guess JTC can ask Zwaxy. Hope this post doesn't become too long :P If I use examples of games I play, that's only because I'm egosentric(+more easy for me to talk about games I know about). I know maybe 10-3-1 would be most easy, but it has it's problems too...even though it's better than current system.

Problems with current(or old) leaderboard:
Problem A: Current lb gives too many points for submissions not worthy for lb points;Courages to submit recordings that are not in top 5 of the game or even much lesser scores, inps that you are not proud of for just to leech lb points. Trackfld.zip even gives one lb-point for 29th place...because formula is 0,85^28 *29th place score/1st place score

Solution1: there should be a cutoff, after which lb points are not given...Give lb points for only top 3 or top 5.

Solution2:Current system is...1st place: 100%, 2nd place: 0,85*your score/first place score, 3rd place: 0,85*0,85*your score/first place score, 4th place: 0,85*0,85*0,85*yourscore/first place score=0,614125*your score/first place score
I think it should be: 1st:100%, 2nd 0,85*your score/first place score...3rd 0,7*your score/first place score...4th: 0,55*your score/first place score
That way you would not get points under 7th place. Also -15% should be higher, and could be different for 2nd and 3rd place etc.

SUGGESTION 1:
10-3-1 points....for 3 first places
OR
100-25-10-6-4 points...for 5 first places

SUGGESTION 2:
100x...30x...10x (x=your score/first place score)...for 3 first places
OR
100x...25x...10x...6x...4x ...for 5 first places with same system...

So for example 3rd place score would be 10 * 3rd place score/1st place score

So these both have cutoff point and therefore offer solution for not submitting 10th place scores for lb-points.

Suggestion 1 has Problem B: It does not matter how high your score is, only position matters.

Suggestion 2 fixes this problem...but has...
Problem C: (your score/first place score)-thinking is flawed.
Games have different scoring systems. At trackfld.zip you get too easily very large percentage of first place score...which really discourages you to improve score, still only position matters. At Galaga.zip it's very hard to get even decent percentage compared to top score, so if you get 2nd place at Galaga.zip...your leaderboard points gain is very small...which discourages you to submit any score for Galaga, no point for fighting for 2nd place at one of most popular games, you get small lb-points anyway.

Nevertheless I think suggestion 2 is better.


Then I was thinking how about adding average to the equation. As: your overall average*suggestion1=average*old leaderboard score. That would force too much to keep good average though, and would lead to situations where its better to delete 3rd place than to keep it.
Partial solution...

SUGGESTION 3:...for top 3 positions
1st place: 10 points
2nd place: 3points*your overall average
3rd place: 1point*your overall average

OR (for not deleting so much bad scores)...for top 5 positions
1st place 100points
2nd place 30*overall average
3rd place 15*overall average
4th place 8*overall average
5th place 6*overall average

That should lead to increasing your overall average. Bad thing is that it propably would do it in expense of deleting your bad percentage scores. But why to delete them if youre proud. lb is not so important...haha.

Then my final suggestion, which is quite interesting...I hope it's doable technically.

One of very big problems I see with old or current leaderboard is
Problem D:Each first place gives equal leaderboard points. Competition at some games is huge, while other games there is no real competition. First places are more worthy for some much competed popular games than for those games people don't play. 2nd place at galaga.zip is much more worthy than first place in an odd game nobody plays.
Solution...give lb-points based on popularity of a game. Presumption: If a game has many submissions it's also popular and hard to get any top scores. I checked that presumption for most submitted games, seems to be the case.

SUGGESTION 4 !!!:
1st place 100 points*P
2nd place 30 points*P
3rd place 15 points*P
4th place 8 points*P
5th place 6 points*P P=popularity multiplier

P-multiplier:
20 most competed(most popular ie most submissions)games, P=10
50 most competed roms, P=9
100 most competed roms, P=8
200 most competed roms, P=7
400 most competed roms, P=6
800 most competed roms, P=5
1400 most competed roms, P=4
2000 most competed roms, P=3
other games P=2

Example:If you had 3rd place at 1941.zip(20 most competed)...you'd get lb points: 15points*P =150 lb-points. If you had 1st place at pc-tkfld(other games, only 1 submission)...you'd get 100*P=200 lb-points etc...

If this is techinically undoable, maybe it's possible to do it like: over 25 submissions P=10, over 20 submissions P=9 etc.

This suggestion(4) would then solve cutoff problem,only 5 first places get points. Mainly this would solve problem for less competed games getting equal points compared to more competed games. Also this system will give clones lesser points, if and when they are not so competed as parent rom.

Problems with this system. First I say this seems most exciting option in my opinion. I think it's just fair to give points also by a game popularity, or vise versa give less points for odd one submission clone...
Problems...I have submission for game pc_tkfld...That score is very good...why I get less points for that...Ok, maybe marpers will notice that you get 30 points anyway submitting 2nd place at the game, no matter how overwhelming my score is...When people start submitting for it, game rises at popularity rankings and gets more points. Current system nobody will submit for that title.
Danger is that people make teams to rise game popularity, but that is easily noticed. (and hey...they have sometime team names too, haha).
If you have many scores at unpopular games, you will lose a little, but top 100 games is only 100games and there are limited points for giving anyway.

Thank you if you could read all this. If you didn't, I'd be glad if you would take a quick peak at suggestions 2 and 4, which are both ok options for new leaderboard scoring. I hope we get lb more interesting somehow.

Tommi
P.S. Besides changing scoring, average and number of 1-3 places should be maintained. They're useful.
Last edited by The TJT on Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by LN2 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:13 pm

The TJT wrote:I think it should be: 1st:100%, 2nd 0,85*your score/first place score...3rd 0,7*your score/first place score...4th: 0,55*your score/first place score
That way you would not get points under 7th place. Also -15% should be higher, and could be different for 2nd and 3rd place etc.
When I first joined MARP and learned each place meant 15% less..I was thinking as the above....instead of it being 15% less than 15% less than 15% less, etc. stuff. Once down to 6th place and beyond that means very little difference currently.

BTW, to easily put your above into a formula:

pts= INT(your score/top score)*(100-[15*(n-1)]) where n is the place number.

This comes out to exactly what TJT states above.

That formula would fix a lot I think..and is a VERY easy change Zwaxy can do very quickly....which also is important IMHO.

You don't want some new complex system.

The above change really isn't a change in the system...but really changes the effect where below 7th place gets 0 pts regardless of their score.

That tiny change might be all that is necessary.
It doesn't change the results for any 1st and 2nd place point scores at all...only slightly affects 3rd place....bit more effect for 4th-7th....which is exactly what most seem to want...more weight on the top 3 scores.

This change does that...and is a simple change.

Buttermaker
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Post by Buttermaker » Thu Mar 11, 2004 8:19 pm

LN2 wrote:Don't blame the leaderboard for that.
Believe me, the leaderboard is the main reason for that.
However, rule #2 to me doesn't read as a rule requiring to only submit "masterful" display of skill replays. It states that as a goal...like a mission statement. It doesn't require all submissions be masterful.
I'm specifically talking about:
l) Submit only games that you feel are worthy of the notice of other MARPers, owing either to personal effort, or display of skill.
It's very easy to see when somebody made no effort to learn/understand/play the game properly. You don't have to finish a game on one credit to be in accordance with that rule. Just make an effort and don't submit inps after a few tries.
I'd bet many just use one of the latest versions and if they watch replays watch those only from the most recent versions....not watch the greatest and most masterful replays.
I don't think that's true. And if it was that would be pretty stupid. You just have to click the "get MAME" link to get the right version. DOSMame works under NT based OSs with -soundcard 0. If the ROMs are older than .36 you have a problem of course. Otherwise they can be acquired.
Many have said the search engine isn't as clear as it could be.
Many?
but as a new member I found most of it very confusing.
I didn't. :)
and the special dlls
Audiow32.dll can be downloaded from MARP
etc.
There is no "etc.". And if you still have a problem post on the board and we'll help you out.
Odds are that turns away many PC gamers as well that could set high scores for a few games each.
When I first found MARP I didn't think I could compete at any game. That didn't turn me away from MARP at all. I just watched the replays I wanted to see. As time went by I found a few games I could compete at but even if I hadn't I would still be here. You don't have to upload to get something out of MARP. From an old post I made:
Buttermaker wrote:I guarantee you that you can find a handful of games which you can be very good at.

Even if you find only one game you excel at you will have a replay many people will download for many years to come.
What you want to do Buttermaker would result in turning more away.
I want the leaderboard to be removed (won't happen, no need to discuss that anymore) or the scoring system to be changed.

That will only turn people away who did nothing but mass-upload for leaderboard points.
Is that good just so you aren't annoyed by seeing mediocre or so-so scores submitted here?
That's not what it is about.
That all sounds like a personal issue for you more than a MARP issue.
Nope, it will make MARP a better place.
Caseh wrote:I, myself will admit that to climb the leaderboard, I will check who is 1-2 places above me, check what they have 1st place in and try to top it. Is that considered as wrong?
Basically, no
If you can top someones score then it deserves to be submitted.
Basically, yes.
Even if I have never seen that game before I'll still have a go at it and can't really see a problem with it, from where I'm sitting it encourages competition.
Yes, it does. But many don't compete. So if you upload an easy first place that required no effort, somebody beats you later and you don't try to beat them back that's not good. Because now you have an inp that displays no skill and wasn't a personal effort. It all comes down to whether you compete or not.

LN2
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Post by LN2 » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:57 pm

Buttermaker, just a thought...instead of trying to assist with changes you keep saying you want the leaderboard removed blah blah blah... or changed but aren't suggesting or commenting on any suggestions to help.

In my post above this one I suggested a simple change in the formula matching one of TJT's suggestions that is a very easy change for Zwaxy to do and largely should get the job done if your theory about why there are tons of so-so submissions is correct.

Sure, I know this is true in some cases..but not others.
Yes, it does. But many don't compete. So if you upload an easy first place that required no effort, somebody beats you later and you don't try to beat them back that's not good. Because now you have an inp that displays no skill and wasn't a personal effort. It all comes down to whether you compete or not.
Half my first place scores I have for games I accomplished with only a few attempts playing the game in MAME. I can't say those were a "personal effort" in your view. if I played each game for an hour a day over 5 days I likely could better most of my scores. The only exceptions to that are ones like my pacman score where I played it on average 1+ hour a day for 2 months before getting that score.

ok, so based on this theory ALL scores for Vs. Balloon Fight from a 4 year period were all sorry scores not worthy of MARP.

In the past week with Tommi and I competing at this game the high score has gone from only 312,000 to over 700k now. I have had several games where I get more than 312k on my first man! I beat the initial 312k high score my second time playing the game.

I think those that quickly submit scores for new rom sets added to at least for a while take an easy 100 LB points does potentially skew the leaderboard a little bit but it also gets those first scores listed for the game...which then makes it much more likely others will join and compete at the game.

If you don't care about the leaderboard I don't see why that should bother you.

Someone has to be first. I know when I look up a game and no scores are found for it I generally assume it's not working so don't bother even trying it. Yes, for me personally, even then I would play the game several times and achieve what I felt was a semi-decent score before submitting it...but even that might not be the level of "skill" you seem to demand.

It often requires someone to put up a number for others to then be motivated to compete and beat the number...whereas if no competition at all for the game they might not even play it.

I know many games I only started playing after seeing fresh uploads for scores for that game...then thinking..oh, let me try that...so I then try the game...often like it...play it for a few hours or a couple nights to set a good or new high score for the game.

That's totally different than submitting a low skill replay file that when submitted is 10th place and gets 2 leaderboard points.

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