PRE POLL discussion :two buttons mapped to the same key

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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PRE POLL discussion :two buttons mapped to the same key

Post by Gerhard S » Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:53 am

two buttons mapped to the same key (WCC5 Game)

forbade :?: -- does not permit :?:

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Post by mahlemiut » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:45 am

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Post by The TJT » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:00 am

Anyone see a positive side on mapping 2 or more buttons to one?
I don't see any reasonable example for allowing that. Not for shooters, sports games and definitely not for fighting games...

I look at my crystal ball, and feel a poll coming soon.

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Post by The TJT » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:51 am

To make things clear:

We are now talking about a situation where a player maps 2(or more) different mame buttons to one key.
Example1: player1 up + player1 right mapped to keyboard button x....so that when you push x, your player moves up and right simultaniously. This makes combos etc more easy to execute.

(This is different matter, but It should be clear without saying, that you cannot map keyboard keys x,c,v,b,n to player1 button...that gives you unfair firepower compared with arcade)

Any opinions?
Poll will follow sometime next week.

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Post by destructor » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:52 am

Mapping buttons should be allowed. If not, please buy for me this:
http://www.slikstik.com/detail.aspx?ID=53
:P

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Post by Frankie » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:31 am

I've always wondered why there isn't a rule against this. When I first started here there was a Scramble like game where I mapped both shooting straight out and down to one fire button as that was easier for me with my old digital joystick :)

I think this should not be allowed, simply because you can't do that on the machines either.
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Post by destructor » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:40 am

Frankie wrote:because you can't do that on the machines either.
You can.

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Post by destructor » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:44 am

The TJT wrote:Example1: player1 up + player1 right mapped to keyboard button x....so that when you push x, your player moves up and right simultaniously. This makes combos etc more easy to execute.
On joystick you press only one direction to move up-right. On keyboard you must press two keys. Keyboard has key-collisions and mapping key is indispensable.

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Post by mahlemiut » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:45 am

Not on any machine I've seen. Not without access to the control panel at least.

And you'd be able to afford a better controller if you didn't spend so much on vodka. :)
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Post by destructor » Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:08 am

mahlemiut wrote:Not without access to the control panel at least.
At home you have access to control panel.

Next. To moving on arcade you use hand, one hand. To moving on keybord you use fingers, three fingers. What is more confortable?

Next. Some examples.
1. Crazy Climber. On arcade you use 2 joy and 2 hands. On keyboard on default key settings you use 8 keys and 6 fingers and playing on keyboard with this setting is almost impossible. I use new setting for keys where I use 7 fingers and 10 keys. Playing is still harder than on arcade stick.

2. Assault. If you think that playing on default keys settings (on keyboard) without mapping is possible then try and good luck.

Remember, when you play on arcade you use comfortable stick with 8 ways, on keyboard you use 4 stupid cursors with 4 ways. To get next 4 diagonnaly ways you must use combination 2 keys where sometimes you to early press one key before next and you are killed.

And ... probably you must delete over half scores from MARP if mapping will be not allowed.

Sory for my english.
mahlemiut wrote:And you'd be able to afford a better controller if you didn't spend so much on vodka. :)
1. Vodka 6USD for week = no money :P
2. I'm poor man :(

In Poland I know only 1 person who has good arcade stick (HotRod). Poland isn't rich country. Maybe you want made MARP for rich people only? :?

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Post by Weehawk » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:28 am

Remapping your keys is fine, but I thought we had always considered mapping two virtual arcade machine buttons to one keyboard key (or joystick button), or vice versa to be in violation of the spirit and intent of Rule 2.

I would be in favor of changing the rules to make it explicit.

My suggestion would be to add a Rule 2.n:

Code: Select all

2.n) Mapping two or more of the original arcade machine's buttons to a single key or joystick button in MAME is not permitted. Neither is it permitted to use more than one key or button in MAME for the same arcade machine button.
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Post by LordGaz » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:43 am

Destructor, I'd have thought with all that bounty money you've earned you could easily afford one of those joysticks ;).
Next. To moving on arcade you use hand, one hand. To moving on keybord you use fingers, three fingers. What is more confortable?
Good point, I use four fingers for movement however, left/right on one hand, up/down on the other and any spare fingers for fire, thrust, jump etc.
Anyone see a positive side on mapping 2 or more buttons to one?
I don't see any reasonable example for allowing that. Not for shooters, sports games and definitely not for fighting games...
Defender is one good example, map a bunch of keys in the middle of the keyboard to hyperspace :). Also it can be useful for getting the slave ship on Raiden Fighters, ie. at the ship selection screen you must hold down any direction key and press fire/bomb/start simultaneously, easy if you map one key to all three functions :). Possible without multimapping but it saves on the trial and error.

Can be useful in Wack'a'Mole type games eg. 'stompin', map one key to hammer 2+ holes :D. It's not always possible to map one key to all holes because even the original game can have key collision issues but you can usually cover all 9 holes in 4 keys and then play it like Track'n'Field :D.

Personally I think it's too harsh to disallow multimapping of keys for all games. But maybe it could be made on a case by case basis, eg. for certain fighter games for people who want to compete in the same 'spirit'.

I think it's also worth discussing here whether auto-fire can be allowed in games which use semi-autofire eg. Raiden Fighters. On a keyboard it's kinda awkward using an extra finger to constantly press fire every ½ a second or so whereas in the arcade or with a joystick it's not nearly so much of a pain.

My twopennethworth.

Gaz.

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Post by QRS » Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:36 pm

Weehawk wrote:Remapping your keys is fine, but I thought we had always considered mapping two virtual arcade machine buttons to one keyboard key (or joystick button), or vice versa to be in violation of the spirit and intent of Rule 2.

I would be in favor of changing the rules to make it explicit.

My suggestion would be to add a Rule 2.n:

Code: Select all

2.n) Mapping two or more of the original arcade machine's buttons to a single key or joystick button in MAME is not permitted. Neither is it permitted to use more than one key or button in MAME for the same arcade machine button.
I agree with you 100% here and the rule looks fine to me.
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Post by MJS » Sun Mar 20, 2005 12:50 pm

destructor wrote:On joystick you press only one direction to move up-right. On keyboard you must press two keys. Keyboard has key-collisions and mapping key is indispensable.
Sorry destructor, but I don't think remapping the controls (as the topic says) is indispensable.
I suggest you find a better keyboard if you have collision problems (because not all keyboards do). Or better still, get a joystick if you are uncomfortable with the keyboard.

However, I don't think this issue is serious enough to change the rules.

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Post by destructor » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:07 pm

Weehawk wrote:My suggestion would be to add a Rule 2.n:

Code: Select all

2.n) Mapping two or more of the original arcade machine's buttons to a single key or joystick button in MAME is not permitted. Neither is it permitted to use more than one key or button in MAME for the same arcade machine button.
But what with older scores where players used mapping and where we can't check it (in older versions mame I think)?
MJS wrote:I suggest you find a better keyboard if you have collision problems (because not all keyboards do). Or better still, get a joystick if you are uncomfortable with the keyboard.
I don't have money for it now and more other players probably too.

Remember about poor players who don't have money for sticks, spinners, trackballs, etc. Don't change rules for myself, change rules for players.

If no key mapping maybe no mouse? Trackball only? I don't saw mouse on arcade.

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