PRE POLL discussion :two buttons mapped to the same key

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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diabolik
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Post by diabolik » Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:33 pm

Weehawk wrote:Remapping your keys is fine, but I thought we had always considered mapping two virtual arcade machine buttons to one keyboard key (or joystick button), or vice versa to be in violation of the spirit and intent of Rule 2.

I would be in favor of changing the rules to make it explicit.

My suggestion would be to add a Rule 2.n:

Code: Select all

2.n) Mapping two or more of the original arcade machine's buttons to a single key or joystick button in MAME is not permitted. Neither is it permitted to use more than one key or button in MAME for the same arcade machine button.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

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LordGaz
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Post by LordGaz » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:03 pm

destructor wrote:Remember about poor players who don't have money for sticks, spinners, trackballs, etc. Don't change rules for myself, change rules for players.
It's not the money, the keyboard is just very convenient. Saying that, if I saw a Hotrod or an Ozstick or a SlikStik or an X-Arcade for sale in a high street shop I'd probably snap one up. Look at this from a keyboard users point of view, after all MAME is an emulator for a PC with a keyboard.

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destructor
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Post by destructor » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:08 pm

Then playing on arcade sticks should be disallowed :D

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Zhorik
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Post by Zhorik » Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:51 pm

I strongly dislike the proposed new rule in the case of the 8-way joystick scenario. With a joystick this is a single action (press a diagonal) that is mapped to two "inputs" (e.g. right and up). I think a keyboard should definitely be allowed to map this to a single key rather than requiring two keys to be pressed simultaneously.

I play almost exclusively with a keyboard, and as destructor mentions, on some games you almost have to do remapping to make games playable. Rather than making a general rule, I would prefer to rule against this by exception where people are clearly abusing input remapping.

In my opinion this particular case of mapping separate fire buttons to the same key is clear abuse.

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Post by Weehawk » Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:38 pm

Zhorik wrote:I strongly dislike the proposed new rule in the case of the 8-way joystick scenario. With a joystick this is a single action (press a diagonal) that is mapped to two "inputs" (e.g. right and up). I think a keyboard should definitely be allowed to map this to a single key rather than requiring two keys to be pressed simultaneously.
I would agree.

Usually an 8-way joystick just uses four contacts (right, left, up, down) but provides a mechanical contrivance to allow the player to engage two of them simultaneously (for diagonal movement). An exception could be made for situations like this which clearly simulate controls available on the real machine.

Simply adding onto my previous suggestion would produce:

Code: Select all

2.n) Mapping two or more of the original arcade machine's buttons to a single key or joystick button in MAME is not permitted. Neither is it permitted to use more than one key or button in MAME for the same arcade machine button. An exception will be made for situations where the real machine provided mechanical means of engaging more than one input simultaneously which is not otherwise emulated in MAME. (Such as diagonal movement in a typical 8-way joystick.)
I would vote in favor of adding a rule worded to this effect.
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Post by mahlemiut » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:00 pm

Even with an arcade 8-way stick, you aren't always guaranteed to hit a diagonal spot on every time. You are with a double mapping.
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Post by Weehawk » Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:17 pm

mahlemiut wrote:Even with an arcade 8-way stick, you aren't always guaranteed to hit a diagonal spot on every time. You are with a double mapping.
Only if you hit the right key.

And if you hit the right spot on an 8-way joystick, you should engage both contacts.

I think it's the best way of mimicking the control available on the real machine if one has to use a keyboard.
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LordGaz
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Post by LordGaz » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:11 pm

'Hitting the right diagonal spot' with a joystick has to be exact, ie. you have to hit both orthogonal contacts simultaneously, the same can be said for releasing the joystick from a diagonal position. Any gauntlet player will tell you that you need a few attempts to get the elf firing in a diagonal position through a gap with your hand off the joystick.

A remapping of one key to 2 directions will 'hit the right spot' first time every time you press that key. Whether you hit the right key is irrelevant.

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MJS
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Post by MJS » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:13 pm

If we are going to be picky about mimicking arcade controls, then we should also consider that you can't hit left and right (or up and down) at the same time with a joystick.

Which means that we would have to remap the directions like this:

up: up not down
down: down not up
left: left not right
right: right not left

:roll:

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Post by Weehawk » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:30 pm

MJS wrote:If we are going to be picky about mimicking arcade controls, then we should also consider that you can't hit left and right (or up and down) at the same time with a joystick.
Mapping the left and right or the up and down input to the same key would clearly not be something that the real machine allowed one to do, and therefore would have nothing to do with the exception we were considering to the explicit rule we were considering. (Both of which are already implied in the current rules in my opinion.)

It would also, as far as I can see, be completely and totally pointless.
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The TJT
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Post by The TJT » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:32 pm

Errr...what's the use hitting left and right at the same time?
...You don't move at all! :P

edit:
I think watching Weehawks reply answers my question
It would also, as far as I can see, be completely and totally pointless.
-----
Anyway, I think this discussion was not about diagonals, but mapping fire buttons etc.

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Post by mahlemiut » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:39 pm

MAME doesn't allow up and down or left and right simultaneously anyway. It doesn't allow diagonals on 4-way sticks either.
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The TJT
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Post by The TJT » Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:47 pm

mahlemiut wrote: It doesn't allow diagonals on 4-way sticks either.
???
For example Tron arcade(4way stick) you can use diagonal, you just go zig zag! So joystick regognizes diagonal, it's just a combination of two 4-way joystick movements pressed at same time.

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Post by SprintGod » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 pm

While we're at it, let's ban playing OutRun with anything other than a steering wheel. Using anything else is clearly in violation of the spirit and intent of Rule 2.
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MJS
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Post by MJS » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:06 pm

:D
See how stupid this discussion may get?

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