Archive these games -topic

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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giro-X
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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by giro-X » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:46 pm

Phil Lamat wrote:Other 1CC on Marp :
daiyogen
fromanc2 (the one I'm the proudest, beating hiro@Team2ch.jp)
fromance
fromancr
lemnangl
mhhonban
mkninjas
mjkojink (by giro-x)
mjnatsu
mjprivat
natsuiro
zokumahj
In my opinion also Idol Janshi Suchie Pai, only on the Special and 3 (Naomi hardware) chapters, are 1cc-able, despite not giving proof of that yet. Also there's more 1cc than those, but I guess this wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list.
TJT, I always thought Mahjong can't be involved in tournaments because it's full with special rules and foreign characters. He will forgive me for bringing this example, but even BBH, who knows the basics of Mahjong, loses a lot of hands just because when it comes to the tiles with Japanese kanji for numbers, he has a hard time figuring out which number each is. It's nothing impossible to learn but we have to admit it's not something you can always learn in occasion of a tournament.

I understand your position anyway, you know as others do here that CPU may penalize an excess of luck. Still, it's a combination of several factors, including luck (Kale described already).

Anyway, we also encountered a very heavy example of CPU not giving room for your skill in a mahjong game.
Among the titles I wanted to suggest for archiving after this gambling question was solved, there was Apparel Night, a BET mahjong, where you can't win your first hand, ever, by inserting just one credit. The max score you can achieve there according to MARP rules is 1. You put in a credit and halt the recording. :?
I guess Phil won't complain if we archive that one. It caught my interest in the past, why was it so impossible? and I tested even with savestates, no result.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by Kale » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:05 pm

Maybe BET mahjong types can be archived, I'm inclined to agree.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by BBH » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:28 am

giro-X wrote:He will forgive me for bringing this example, but even BBH, who knows the basics of Mahjong, loses a lot of hands just because when it comes to the tiles with Japanese kanji for numbers, he has a hard time figuring out which number each is. It's nothing impossible to learn but we have to admit it's not something you can always learn in occasion of a tournament.
No, I lose hands because mahjong isn't a stream-friendly thing for me, because there's a lot of shit to pay attention to and then factoring in an active stream chat, I lose track of what I'm doing and end up discarding the wrong tile. That's why I stopped streaming them, because I was also sick of people talking shit. So stop talking shit :X

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by Novice » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:47 am

DEFCON=5

it requires intelligence.
period
DEFence CONdition
WAR 1<< >>7 PEACE

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by ***PL*** » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:45 pm

PP. wrote: Plz unstar those with "four play" and "mem-o-ree"!

megat2a-mem
megat4stg
megat4te


And what about all these mahjongs(Phil has about 150), do they belong in the "luck" category?
The games you mention are Megatouch clones and will remain archived.

Mem-o-ree is available by playing either megat2, megat3, megat5 or megat6 (not megat4)
Fourplay is available by playing either megat3, megat4, megat5 or megat6 (not megat2)

Mahjong games require some level of skill.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by giro-X » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:33 pm

BBH wrote:No, I lose hands because mahjong isn't a stream-friendly thing for me, because there's a lot of shit to pay attention to and then factoring in an active stream chat, I lose track of what I'm doing and end up discarding the wrong tile. That's why I stopped streaming them, because I was also sick of people talking shit. So stop talking shit :X
#-o
Apologies man, I wrote the post in a hurry.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by The TJT » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:57 pm

***PL*** wrote: Mahjong games require some level of skill.
As do gambling games...

The question is: Do they require hand-eye-coordination, reflexes and timing?
...If they don't then I don't consider it a video game, or something which should be included into MARP LB.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by PP. » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:50 pm

***PL*** wrote: The games you mention are Megatouch clones and will remain archived.
The games I mentioned are megatouch clones but they need skill, not luck.
Meanwhile, many luck games remain to phil, gc and el wil.
I wonder why you delete skill games and let luck games.
***PL*** wrote: Mahjong games require some level of skill.
cmpacman, unkpacg, cmpacmana and cmtetris which I mentioned the other day, require 100% level of skill, but you archived them...

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by giro-X » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:07 am

The TJT wrote:Furthermore I'd argue that Mahjong is based on luck and strategy around equally as much as, say, 'Solitaire'. The basic idea of Solitaire and Mahjong is the same: Picking a matching card/tile which frees cards/tiles underneath. Which card/tile you pick is strategy while which card/tile gets revealed underneath is luck.

It's more complicated Solitaire with tiles really. I think Mahjong games should be archived as well.
Please don't tell me you are confusing the solitaire with tiles with a Riichi Mahjong. For all the time you've been here, I refuse to believe you're getting in the whirlpool of people still thinking mahjong is only a "solitaire".
You're hating so much Mahjong because, you say, no hand-eye-coordination (which I can't understand in detail what you meant), no reflexes, no timing, and you never said anything about those other table-like games, where's your determination in archiving chess games? Or Ataxx? Othello, Renju, Connect 4, etc.?
Where the hell are these criteria in Puzzle Bobble? A game that gives a shitty bonus for time left compared to what you can obtain with big drops, where is the timing there? Reflexes? And with all the time at your disposal for aiming, do you really need a stress for hand-eye-coordination? Would you dare to archive Puzzle Bobble (not-VS) chapters and inspired games just because they don't follow YOUR idea of video game?
Plus, it's not quite true that all Mahjong videogames in MAME do not require timing or reflexes. You clearly never saw how two powerups in The Lady Hunter work. You clearly didn't know that Vs. Janshi Brandnew Stars provides a bar to fill to activate your character powerup and to fill that you must discard tiles at a frustrating quick speed, and this forces you on fast thinking and reflexes.
It's true that some mahjong games are so minimal and all the same, slow, only strategical thing, but still they are not heavily based on luck. Skill in gambling? On slot machine there's some skill? To know which cards to hold in Poker is a skill? I suddenly forgot of that time I saw a dipswitch for winning chances.
If you want to lurk into every detail of each of hundreds of games in MAME to determine whether the luck factor is heavier than the skill, grab a seat and have a nice adventure.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by Kale » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:46 am

The TJT wrote:
***PL*** wrote: Mahjong games require some level of skill.
As do gambling games...

The question is: Do they require hand-eye-coordination, reflexes and timing?
...If they don't then I don't consider it a video game, or something which should be included into MARP LB.
Kale wrote:Requires decisional awareness, statistical analysis, hand reading, a bit of luck.
They are the exact same skills necessary for beating a good roguelike game btw

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by The TJT » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:29 am

giro-X wrote:and you never said anything about those other table-like games, where's your determination in archiving chess games? Or Ataxx? Othello, Renju, Connect 4, etc.?
They should be archived as well. Connect Four... please!

These are all nice games, as is mahjong... but not really video games.
Where the hell are these criteria in Puzzle Bobble? A game that gives a shitty bonus for time left compared to what you can obtain with big drops,
That's a matter of flawed scoring then, which is a different matter.
where is the timing there? Reflexes? And with all the time at your disposal for aiming, do you really need a stress for hand-eye-coordination?
I haven't really played Puzzle Bobble, although it's much similar to Puzzle De Pon... which actually does require some hand-eye coordination (at least pointing the arrow to correct direction accurately and seeing the angles) and quick thinking. It's basically a Tetris type game.
Plus, it's not quite true that all Mahjong videogames in MAME do not require timing or reflexes.
I have to trust your word on that.
If you want to lurk into every detail of each of hundreds of games in MAME to determine whether the luck factor is heavier than the skill, grab a seat and have a nice adventure.
It's not so much about skill/luck ratio... but about the fact that something like chess or mahjong is not a video game but a board game.

Would you claim that someone who has 200 first places - all mahjong - is top 10 video game player at MARP? I wouldn't call him a video game player at all.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by giro-X » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:24 pm

The TJT wrote:Connect Four... please!
[...]
I haven't really played Puzzle Bobble, although it's much similar to Puzzle De Pon... which actually does require some hand-eye coordination (at least pointing the arrow to correct direction accurately and seeing the angles) and quick thinking. It's basically a Tetris type game.
[...]
It's not so much about skill/luck ratio... but about the fact that something like chess or mahjong is not a video game but a board game.

Would you claim that someone who has 200 first places - all mahjong - is top 10 video game player at MARP? I wouldn't call him a video game player at all.
I was making examples, to see if you were thinking alike - yeah, Connect 4 is not in my top interesting things to watch either; still, harder than a slot machine... usually.

Puzzle de Pon actually has a 2 minutes timer, even faster in Pon R!, so you actually need more precision, while PB is turn based.

Ok, they are board games, but still, made up into videogames; as for example sports game can be real games outside the videogames context... these videogames exist, they can bring variations that you can have only on a virtual ambience, they involve some sort of skill, and they are interesting to watch for a consistent bunch of people. While we may agree Mahjong will never gather enough interest as common genres do, there's a small bunch of people who are interested about it. I believe the people "genuinely interested" in gambling games are a waaaaay smaller bunch, and the combo of general interest + (no) skill involved, together, is a reason why (note: belief) editors finally came up to this conclusion.
Although the new rules say - no skill involved and is 100% pure luck (e.g. casino games), and of course they can't talk about an "interest". That's subjective.

No, I would not claim someone with a... dunno, 80%? of his scores being mahjong titles, to be in a subjective top ten. I would probably call him a Mahjong master, if he manages to beat other MJ players so so frequently, but no more than that. But - luckily, this is not happening, and i.m.o. there's no need to worry about this if it doesn't happen, also nobody fills the upload page with mahjong records regularly. I doubt the gambling archiving would have passed so easily if it was not for the frustration coming up with most recent facts.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by PP. » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:43 pm

What's up with the rest of slot machines and card games which still remain in some players scoreboards?
So far you cleaned only TK2012.
Last edited by PP. on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by el wil » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:20 pm

Sure ... I'm not the only player in MARP who likes these games.
I think that in MARP would have to fit all types of players and modalities.
In the future there will be a site in MARP for the thousands of roms that still have to emulate "luck" games ...
It is ridiculous to think otherwise

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Re: Archive these games -topic

Post by PP. » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:45 am

Are more games going to be archived? We must know.

For examble, "megat2a-mem" is archived because "this game is Megatouch clone and will remain archived"...
But "megat6-mem" and "megat5-mem" are not archived. Is it ok to upload a score for these two games or they're going to be archived too :?:

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