Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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gat
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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by gat » Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:36 pm

I'm using the 20+ drops for Puzzle Bobble 4 and the '?' ending for best points productivity. On the '?5' I have had 4 20+ drops but that game was spoilt by my norton updating itself. I've just started playing the expert mode on Puzzle Bobble 4 (as TG are now tracking the harder modes as well on PB3 and PB4) and so far I've found the same route as the normal mode to be the most points productive also, but obviously harder. I've watched some of the other replays on PB4 and other routes are being taken and the points haul from those can give the same as the route I take so it's down to the individual on which route they are happiest with.

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by kranser » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:05 pm

Thanks for the information Gat - wow 4 * Max drop point on the last level is an achievement! It's good to hear from an expert player.

So Gat, do you think it is not good to split on the route selection (B-E-I-N-T-Z), but instead we need to either:
A) Split on the games which have a hard/difficult gameplay mode (currently only these Puzzle Bobble games: Puzzle Bobble 3 (that's if you consider the 'Ver 2.5' to be the difficult mode?), Puzzle Bobble 4, Super Puzzle Bobble and Pop 'n' Pop)?
Or
B) Split on route ending - U, V, W, ?, X, Y, Z?
Or
C) Not split at all?

Thanks,
Kranser.

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by gat » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:46 pm

I personally would like a split with the harder modes being tracked but that's just my preference as I submit to TG as well as here and on PB3 and PB4 they are both on the same settings which means I don't have to play through twice as many times, to get scores for both, which can become tedious. I feel it is a lot more rewarding playing the games where there is parity with the settings on here and on TG, again my personal feelings. If the different level endings were tracked, then once someone had figured out the best route for those most would follow suit which is the same as one of the original complaints about people using one route. Unless it got split with pre-determined routes covering every possible route which would be non-sensical then there would not be much difference to how it is tracked already, just more endings with players mainly following the same path. Tracking the harder modes is my personal preference.

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by kranser » Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:14 pm

Thanks gat for stating your preferences. I actually agree with them, and feel if we can track both normal gameplay mode and hard gameplay mode in PB3, PB4, SPB and PNP then that will help resolve the issues I originally had. As for PB2 - well as it doesn't have a hard gameplay mode, I guess I can live with it as is.

Phil Lamat, Pat and BBH, do any of you have comments on this and any preferences?

Does anyone else have a view on this?

Kranser.

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by LN2 » Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:12 pm

I don't like the idea for this anymore than for TG and guitar hero tracks tracking the score for each song at each difficulty. cmon...track only highest score for each song. Anyone scoring really high on hard or expert level is going to be able to match or max out easy or medium. little point to doing that on easier skill levels also.

ok, that is a bit different....but related in that we already have 1000s of tracks...why split more than necessary.

if you do this for puzzle bobble, then you must do it for games like Outrun also where you can choose the course as you race along. imagine suddenly having 16 (or would it be 32) splits for each rom set of outrun...

we already comment on how many tracks there are for specific games due to many rom revisions like gauntlet, pac-mans, space invaders, asteroids, etc.

I think any where there is a choice within the gameplay don't count as splits. Only games where you have different selections before the gameplay starts should be allowed....whether by dip switch or selection after entering a credit or even starting the game and some initial selection before you start the actual game are worthy of splitting...and easy determine...no gray areas.

this potentially has gray areas for many games that would potentially just lead to issues among gamers.

otherwise, you also open up splitting games that allow for warping or not warping during the gameplay. it's a potential big can of worms here that leads to 100s more tracks getting added.

just my $0.01(it's all I've got! :P )

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by Phil Lamat » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:13 am

kranser wrote:Phil Lamat, Pat and BBH, do any of you have comments on this and any preferences?
I've one, I've already gave it on 3rd post of the thread :
no split at all

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by kranser » Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:01 am

LN2 wrote:I don't like the idea for this anymore than for TG and guitar hero tracks tracking the score for each song at each difficulty. cmon...track only highest score for each song. Anyone scoring really high on hard or expert level is going to be able to match or max out easy or medium. little point to doing that on easier skill levels also.

ok, that is a bit different....but related in that we already have 1000s of tracks...why split more than necessary.

if you do this for puzzle bobble, then you must do it for games like Outrun also where you can choose the course as you race along. imagine suddenly having 16 (or would it be 32) splits for each rom set of outrun...
I don't agree LN2. You say that on hard difficulty a player can max out the normal difficulty scoring. Well, for Puzzle Bobble I very much doubt that can be done. As the hard difficulty doesn't offer any extra points than the normal difficulty, and the hard difficulty is tougher - more bubbles to clear than the normal difficulty, and it is more difficult to construct the all important maximum bubble drops (to give over 1M points). The amount of effort required to get any near the normal score would IMO be phenomenal.

Also, you make it sound like I'm asking for 1000s of splits for each route in Puzzle Bobble. No, that would be too tedious. Instead all I'm asking for is just one split for difficult puzzles. I'd be happy for it just to be trialed on the main region set first (to see how things work out) - so even less splits required.

Well for outrun (outrunners at least) there are already splits on the different courses that can be done. For Puzzle Bobble games the difficult level is equivalent to another course - as each game round is completely different than the same round in the normal difficulty.

For outrun you can choose the course, but that is in game, similar to how Puzzle Bobble lets you choose to play route A or B (or C, D or E for the next stage). I'm talking about the difficulty that is selected at the very start of the game - where expert players are presented with more difficult puzzles with no scoring increase. Outrun doesn't compare wit this as it doesn't have an on-screen difficulty setting.

Kranser.

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by gat » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:05 pm

I would like to see anyone who can get better scores on the hard modes versus the normal modes on PB. (Maybe LN2 will provide us with that inp?) The hard modes offer less opportunities for big point drops with the screens different from their normal counterparts much in the same way as XESS - The New Revolution (SemiCom 3-in-1) has a mode select at the start which lets the player choose old map, which is the same as Cookie & Bibi 2 but with a different points scoring system, or new map which are the same screens as old map with slight alterations that make them harder. I can't see why it is tracked in one game but not in another.

XESS - The New Revolution (SemiCom 3-in-1) Old Map ----- XESS - The New Revolution (SemiCom 3-in-1) New Map (Tracked)
= =
Puzzle Bobble 4 Normal Mode ----- Puzzle Bobble 4 Super Expert Mode (Not Tracked) ?

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by kranser » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:15 pm

gat wrote: XESS - The New Revolution (SemiCom 3-in-1) Old Map ----- XESS - The New Revolution (SemiCom 3-in-1) New Map (Tracked)
= =
Puzzle Bobble 4 Normal Mode ----- Puzzle Bobble 4 Super Expert Mode (Not Tracked) ?
Thanks for the example Gat - I was trying to find an example myself, but you seem to have found an excellent comparison.

By the way, what do you consider the 'hard' game play mode for Puzzle Bobble 3? is 'Ver 2.5' the hard levels?

Kranser.

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by gat » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:36 am

I don't know if the 2.5 in PB3 is harder as I have not played any PB3 yet. One of the reasons why I would like some splits on games with a harder mode is that a lot of the existing games have probably been 95+% maxed out over time with some records having stood for a decade or so with a lot of the old inps now unwatchable. In other threads I have read some people would like to attract new players to marp but unless new tracks, preferably harder modes rather than clones, are added there is no fresh competition.

Destructor has already stated on the TG forum, regarding hidden inps on TG,
"I'm happy when I can show how to play, nevermind if game is patterned or not. I don't fear that someone will beat my score. If someone beat my score, it knows that I missed something and my play was not perfect. Then I analyse again my replay and replay my "opponent" and create new better methods. It is only one way for mastering game. It is impossible to made without sharing replays!".

I totally agree with destructor and players can learn and improve of each other and regardless of who is number one people will be able to watch a game played to the highest level. As a lot of the inps are unwatchable now then newer tracks mean more watchable inps played to the highest level with the greatest skill irrelevant of which mode has the higher score, is that not what marp is about ?

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by LN2 » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:27 pm

kranser wrote:You say that on hard difficulty a player can max out the normal difficulty scoring. Well, for Puzzle Bobble I very much doubt that can be done.
as I stated it's not exactly the same as guitar hero....but similar in that you are diluting the scoreboard and odds are that same gamer(s) that have WR score playing it at the hardest route possible are also going to have best scores for the easier routes as well even if they don't score as high.

My point for no splits cuz the gamer chooses the path that yields the highest score!
Outrun....selections are made to which way to go and course to choose to get the highest score possible!
As the hard difficulty doesn't offer any extra points than the normal difficulty, and the hard difficulty is tougher - more bubbles to clear than the normal difficulty, and it is more difficult to construct the all important maximum bubble drops (to give over 1M points). The amount of effort required to get any near the normal score would IMO be phenomenal.
yes but if you are saying maxing or nearly maxing is too easy, then yes that warrants a split for harder difficulty...but not 16/32 splits for all in between. however, you could also go the route since many rom sets and variations of this type of game...to have only certain rom sets with special rules setup that you must play at the hard difficulty setting versus "normal" for other rom sets.

this has been done for some. also for many tracks, note within tracks there is inconsistency as many might play using TGTS instead of mame default settings(which for a track might be all MARP requires) and TGTS often is harder...but sometimes EASIER. gamers will select that to achieve a higher score! it's an uneven playing field for the track but it's the gamer's choice which they want so it is what it is. ie. pacman easiest example... mame default which also is MARP's settings are 3+1 men...yet TG allows 5+1 so many play using TGTS so can pay with 5 men...while others played(like me) with only 3+1. there are no splits for these different settings...just all grouped together within the track. obviously anyone setting a score for that track now would choose TGTS to have the 2 additional lives versus MARP/mame default settings.

Also, you make it sound like I'm asking for 1000s of splits for each route in Puzzle Bobble. No, that would be too tedious. Instead all I'm asking for is just one split for difficult puzzles. I'd be happy for it just to be trialed on the main region set first (to see how things work out) - so even less splits required.
For Puzzle Bobble games the difficult level is equivalent to another course - as each game round is completely different than the same round in the normal difficulty.
again many tracks here where TGTS vs mame default are quite different in difficulty yet are not split at MARP. it's up to the gamer to select whichever gives them the highest score.

1 gamer for pole position for example chose even a higher difficulty level than default or TGTS to allow passing more cars for a higher potential score. this is really entering a gray area though.
I'm talking about the difficulty that is selected at the very start of the game - where expert players are presented with more difficult puzzles with no scoring increase.
your earlier post seemed to have grouped these together. Yes, I could see 1 track for 1 of the clones etc. perhaps having a special rules setup for the higher difficulty. I would be in favor of that if it came to a membership vote.

ok, you want a comparison take Cameltry. This is a guide your ball through a maze to goals game. There are different courses...which are split. but then there are also different balls you can select at game start. certain balls (well, mainly just the steel ball) yield much higher scores versus using the default ball or many of the other balls you can select. using your logic, splits should be done for Cameltry for each and every type of ball you can select.

nah, that choice i left up to the gamer. some that are new to the game likely can score higher using the default ball as it has easier control and isn't as fast so they can control it well. once more advanced in skill at the game, you reach limits with the default ball that you can go far beyond using the steel ball. the game plays more difficult with the steel ball as you must be far more precise in your moves to guide the ball with a lot more inertia safely...but it allows for much higher scoring from easier and faster block breaking etc.

a few splits I can see...but not all possibilities which is a can of worms this maybe opens as some other gamer will come along pointing out the splits MARP has doesn't cover what mode/level they play.

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Re: Please reconsider splits on puzzle bobble-style games

Post by kranser » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:20 pm

Thanks for your reply LN2.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear that I was never asking for 32+ splits for each different route, just one split per game for the hard difficult setting.

I originally mentioned the B-E-I-N-T-Z route, as I thought this would be the most difficult (and the hardest route to obtain the 1M bonus point drops), but as Gat has pointed out, that isn't necessarily the case, and instead the difficulty setting (Normal or Hard) has a much bigger impact on the ability to make the bonuses than the route selected.

Sorry if my mentioning of the routes has confused matters, but I think we can now forget about the route (path) when considering splits for Puzzle Bobble-style games.

However, I feel it is important to have a single split for 'difficult' game play mode for each of PB3, PB4, SPB and PNP - even if it is in one of the clones of these games.
LN2 - when you suggested using one of the clones for the hard difficulty were you thinking of a new split for that clone, or scrapping all existing scores for that clone and making a special rule that that clone must be played with the hard difficulty level?

Kranser.

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