Domino Man - Leeching

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

Moderator: BBH

Post Reply
User avatar
Zhorik
MARP Seer
MARP Seer
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:16 pm

Domino Man - Leeching

Post by Zhorik » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:01 am

Interesting new replay on Domnio Man: http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/2/d/4/cwk ... olf106.zip

Player plays for about 9 minutes normally though Level 11 with some point pressing along the way, then after cashing in his Domino chain on level 11 and getting a bunch of extra lives, the player just flips a domino over and over on level 11 for 100 pts a flip for the next 35 minutes earning less than enough to earn an extra live per level, but with zero attempt to move to complete the level, in clear violation of rule 2h which says "h) Point or life leeching is strongly discouraged, and banned on some games, as described in the banned techniques list, or in the specific game's special rules. You cannot continuously gain points without some degree of risk and you must keep moving to complete a level."

In my opinion when 80% of the gameplay is just low-skill flipping a domino over and over again, something is wrong. If you have any doubts, please watch the replay. I'd suggest either we consider switching the special rules to be 5-lives only, or we impose some sort of special rule that says that once you've spent one life leeching on a level until the timer expires, that on the next life you either make a clear attempt to clear the level, or you score will be adjusted to remove the leeched points

GJTMarper
Button Masher
Button Masher
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 4:42 pm

Re: Domino Man - Leeching

Post by GJTMarper » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:12 pm

The best way to score points in this game is to build and "cash in" (by deliberate toppling) the longest domino chain you can manage to build up. Because the enemy appearance and movement is randomized, it's in the player's best interest to sometimes deliberately sacrifice a life to avoid losing a chain. A 5-lives cap would mean luck with the enemies would matter at least as much (if not more so) as skill in building domino chains.

Because of that fact above, I would argue against a hard cap on the lives and for banning the leeching technique, if not in general then at least "you can do it for one life only per level before you need to try to move on".

The_Pro
MARPaltunnel Wrists
MARPaltunnel Wrists
Posts: 459
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2004 11:10 pm

Re: Domino Man - Leeching

Post by The_Pro » Sun Aug 21, 2016 8:16 pm

Agreed that a 5 life rule would hinder people playing normally. Limiting leeching seems better here.

There's no reason to encourage this type of play when it's entirely possible to progress further in the game through a bit more effort. A person can play how they like on their own, I won't dare say spirit of the game because I also think that's a silly notion. However, when submitting to a scoreboard/replay site, I do think it's good to exercise some degree of quality control, both for other competitors sake and for people who thought they were going to watch a good replay.
Aurcade - Find the coin-op games you want to play!

User avatar
Zhorik
MARP Seer
MARP Seer
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:16 pm

Re: Domino Man - Leeching

Post by Zhorik » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:51 am

To make it easier for others to see the gameplay in question here without having to download inps and find roms, I did a side-by-side stream earlier this week on twitch of the new submission in question (which reaches L11) and Don Haye's current 1st place submission (which reaches L33) which score almost identical points.

In the twitch stream CWK's new replay is on the left and Don's replay is on the right. If you want to skip to the "contentious" part, jump about 9 minutes into the replay. https://www.twitch.tv/gstrain/v/85364988

-George

User avatar
dbh
MARP Knight
MARP Knight
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:13 pm
Location: Salem, NH
Contact:

Re: Domino Man - Leeching

Post by dbh » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:47 pm

I agree with GJTMarper and The_Pro. Changing to 5 lives only wouldn't help. With the 5 lives you can easily get 120K-150K where playing straight up you're unlikely to get anywhere near that with five men due to the randomness and speed of the enemies in the upper levels (15 and beyond, and especially the board 21 layout which reappears every 6 levels...21, 27, 33, etc).

I also don't think allowing leeching one man per board would be helpful. It's still rewarding a near zero-skill maneuver with an extra 25K+ per level completed.

It's clearly a violation of rule 2h as there's absolutely no attempt to proceed in the game and there's almost zero risk (just the bee). I think it just needs to be noted in the special rules. I would suggest cutting off the score at the beginning of the level where the leeching first occurred and anything after that is disqualified.

User avatar
Zhorik
MARP Seer
MARP Seer
Posts: 785
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:16 pm

Re: Domino Man - Leeching

Post by Zhorik » Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:19 am

Here's a photo of Zerst putting up 2.1M on Domino Man at this weekends Galloping Ghost Arcade T20 tournament, although this was on settings of extra men every 20K. There wasn't even an initial long chain; literally just mashing the button for hours: http://imgur.com/a/3x1ec

User avatar
Phil Lamat
Regulation Coordinator
Posts: 1996
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:19 am

Re: Domino Man - Leeching

Post by Phil Lamat » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:25 am

This topic was on my "things to do" list, but I don't know the game very well.
For sure this score has to be edited down.
But to what score ? with what rule ?

I propose :
"if you die twice on a same level, any point made after on this same level will be substracted"

That would give 480267 for CWK's input, but I ignore if this rule is too restricting and if other inputs are concerned ...
What do you think ?

User avatar
dbh
MARP Knight
MARP Knight
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 7:13 pm
Location: Salem, NH
Contact:

Re: Domino Man - Leeching

Post by dbh » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:45 pm

I propose :
"if you die twice on a same level, any point made after on this same level will be substracted"

That would give 480267 for CWK's input, but I ignore if this rule is too restricting and if other inputs are concerned ...
What do you think ?
This rule would definitely affect the top two real scores (mine and sikraiken).

It would also be too restrictive for any game that reaches level 15, and certainly level 21 or beyond. The layout of this board, the randomness of the enemies, and the speed at which they reappear makes this particular level next to impossible to do with only 1 or 2 men. Also, the boards repeat at this point in the game every 6 boards so board 27 is the same as 21, as is 33, 39, etc. The best I've done clearing this board is only losing 4 men but it usually takes more than that. sikraiken lost all his remaining men (probably around 20) in his game trying to finish this board and he was actually trying to finish it not just leeching a single domino or two. Also, it can be strategic to die on purpose on this board in order to preserve a chain of dominos on the screen.

The issue is how to write a rule to allow the honest effort of trying to complete the screen and the strategies involved in that. It's one of those things that when you see it, you know it just shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps the rule should be along the lines of disallowing placing and picking up the same domino(s) more than twice without attempting to place other dominos. A potential problem with this would be the rare cases where you have to pick up a domino to preserve a chain that is about to be knocked over and then replace it and then have to do it again right after that due to a different enemy.

Post Reply