phoenix & clones bug

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Should the 200,000 bug in Phoenix and its clones be allowed?

Poll ended at Sun Aug 11, 2002 5:58 am

Yes.
7
58%
No.
5
42%
 
Total votes: 12

roncli
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phoenix & clones bug

Post by roncli » Sun Aug 04, 2002 5:58 am

http://marp.retrogames.com/inp/ceh_cond ... _win61.zip

There's a bug where if you hit 3 diagonal moving ships at one time, you get a score of approximately 200,000. This goes way above realistic scores you can get without exploiting the bug.

Should scores with this bug be allowed?
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Post by The TJT » Mon Aug 05, 2002 12:21 pm

The bug can be exploited by everyone who ever wants to. It can be done easily at stage 2-2 or much more easily at 3-2. You can only do it once...it resets your score allways to around 204 000...so theres no advantage doing it many times during one game. TG-records certainly have used the trick(if they're for real/same settings).
Anyway it really doesn't matter much, you just get the bonus once and then play normally to get points on top of that bonus. BTW My best "realistic" score would be around 330K at Taito romset. There is also a 100K trick, which works at certain romset at level 1-1, which has not been shown at any inp at MARP, maybe because you lose a life and you would reset your score anyway to 200k later.

More importantly, I would want to see some stability at MARP...when it comes to scores. .Not nice to see your scores deleted after a vacation...I'm not sure top Phoenixers would be very happy.
The standard of Phoenix scores would be lowered a lot, if 200+ scores would be deleted.

You simply can't change rules suddenly for a game that has been competed at marp for several years.

Also you should at least be a Phoenix player to challenge a scoring for the game.

-----
Marp Phoenix champ, 509 000

P.S. Condor-romset could be played without 200k bonus

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Post by Chad » Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:21 pm

yeah, if people who cheat go on a vacation for a month or so, lets just leave their scores there since, after all they are marp recordings and we can play them back to the advertised scores. Breaking rules set up is just the same.

oh yeah if there was ever a rule that was more geared to self preservation: only banish condor from having the 200k rule. hmm i wonder who has all the top pheonix scores besides condor AND was probably thinking about beating my score but couldnt because it's not easy to do? i wonder. I fricken worked hard for that chance to get the 200k score, it doesn't come easy as in other versions and yes this version is harder than batman...

Sorry if this vote goes against 200k then they all go. Although i do agree only pheonix players votes should mean more.
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Post by roncli » Mon Aug 05, 2002 2:35 pm

The TJT wrote:Not nice to see your scores deleted after a vacation...I'm not sure top Phoenixers would be very happy.
The standard of Phoenix scores would be lowered a lot, if 200+ scores would be deleted.
Not nice? Maybe, but if the vote goes against it, these players will have to get over it unless Pat steps in and overturns the vote (assuming it doesn't make 2/3). I can think of a few bugs that are banned from MARP play (SMB's 999 time bonus bug comes to mind), and thus I don't think any romset's bugs should be an exception to that, whether it be one of your best sets or someone else's.
The TJT wrote:You simply can't change rules suddenly for a game that has been competed at marp for several years.
I can't directly, no. But I can sure try.

http://marp.retrogames.com/rules/memberrights.htm

Read section A.
The TJT wrote:Also you should at least be a Phoenix player to challenge a scoring for the game.
I have confirmed approximately 700 recordings at MARP. Some of the things I look for in the recordings are leeching, bug exploits, and other funny stuff. I saw this bug, did enough research on it to get an understanding of it, and used my rights as a player at MARP to start a poll to eliminate the exploit. If TG wants to allow it, that's fine. I will say it again, MARP is *NOT* TG.

At the moment, it doesn't even look like this is going to pass, so if it doesn't, I will consider restricting it to just the condor set.
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Phoenix & clones bug

Post by ***PL*** » Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:06 pm

Tommi, be careful because the way I see it you are trying to set a double standard. If you don't know that means, I will explain by example. Basically, it is perfectly OK to exploit a bug in Phoenix to a gain a huge number of disporportionate points, but at that same time in other games it is not acceptable? Yet in Paperboy recently it was said I can't use the stadium bug. Where's the consistency???

All MARP scores for Phoenix (original + clones) that exploit this bug should be dealt with immediately to not allow this tactic!

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Post by The TJT » Tue Aug 06, 2002 6:28 am

Well, well, some pretty unexpected answers...

Chad:

"yeah, if people who cheat go on a vacation for a month or so, lets just leave their scores there since, after all they are marp recordings and we can play them back to the advertised scores. Breaking rules set up is just the same."
:::::
WTF, you are saying I'm breaking rules?
The bug is available to everyone and easy to accomplish, a certainty at stage 3-2. You just have to watch other inps and see how it's done: hint: After I get them btards, I try not to move or shoot before it is absolutely necessary...this tactic prevents game crashing after getting the bonus.

Forget my comment about vacation, just notice that this bug has been in use for several years, "Tripper" used it 16.4.1998!!!! Now you guys notice it, man you are fast :?
-------

"oh yeah if there was ever a rule that was more geared to self preservation: only banish condor from having the 200k rule. hmm i wonder who has all the top pheonix scores besides condor AND was probably thinking about beating my score but couldnt because it's not easy to do? i wonder. I fricken worked hard for that chance to get the 200k score, it doesn't come easy as in other versions and yes this version is harder than batman..."
:::::::::
Come on.
For sure I want to keep my Phoenix scores, what is wrong with that! Surely I have "worked" much more for them than you with your Condor score. If you think I can't beat 205K at condor in a flash, think again. I have only tested the game for an hour and half or so, and already done it, but simply was not recording. My plan is to take the first place anyway, I simply just have had a tiny little vacation from videogames too...
Batman and Condor are about equally hard imo.

I should have left the comment about different rules for condor out of my previous message, or explained it better: Since condor is so hard, 200k bonus plays a much bigger role than usually. If you get it earlier than 3-2 you have gained some precious points on top of the bonus on your way from bonus to stage 3-2. Furthermore, and more importantly, while "testing" CONDOR I noticed that BONUS seems NOT to be such CERTAINTY than at OTHER romsets, which makes scoring more of a luck and frustration of not getting the bonus.

I'm not trying to make my own rules, or rules that I can get easily first places :lol:
The thing is just that gameplay at condor differs from other clones, so it could be an exception, either way...I don't care.
-------

"Sorry if this vote goes against 200k then they all go. Although i do agree only pheonix players votes should mean more."
:::::::
Hopefully not :cry: It required some serious playing to beat ARB at ALL romsets. Yes, I believe this is a matter for Phoenix players to vote, I'm afraid that this will not be the case here.

Ronald: For future reference, I would prefer asking top players of any game for their opinions before placing a vote here, or atleast trying get a decent score for a game in question.
-----

Pat:
"Tommi, be careful because the way I see it you are trying to set a double standard. If you don't know that means, I will explain by example. Basically, it is perfectly OK to exploit a bug in Phoenix to a gain a huge number of disporportionate points, but at that same time in other games it is not acceptable? Yet in Paperboy recently it was said I can't use the stadium bug. Where's the consistency???"
::::::::
The consistency lies beneath consistency: Phoenix bug gives you allways the same amount of points, while grandstand trick doesn't. Also the kerb trick gives too random points, which makes scoring more of a luck than skill. Anyway we're talking about different game now, we might be conversating of Tracknfield javelin bonus as well...or anything similar. General rules are not allways suitable for every mamelated game out there.
------

"All MARP scores for Phoenix (original + clones) that exploit this bug should be dealt with immediately to not allow this tactic!"

:::::
No!
You've got your right for your opinion, as do I. But I'm a Phoenix player, are you.

Somehow, a bit twistedly, I like these conversations, on the other hand I hate them from the bottom of my heart.

Thank you,
Tommi

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Post by Chad » Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:21 pm

The TJT wrote:Well, well, some pretty unexpected answers...
The bug is available to everyone and easy to accomplish, a certainty at stage 3-2. You just have to watch other inps and see how it's done: hint: After I get them btards, I try not to move or shoot before it is absolutely necessary...this tactic prevents game crashing after getting the bonus.
doesn't always work in 3-2 in condor even using your method... But as you agree it's "easy to accomplish then there's no reason to stop it from happening in just the condor clone :) And it sort of easy once you get the feel for when it'll happen, i just said that it was difficult to edge you, a fabulous pheonix player (and a far cry better than i), on to admit it was easy. I really wouldn't mind, since i like playing games with challenges even though the 200k bonus would be taken out of the mix.

I do feel your pain of potentially (although not likely) losing your great scores as 1rst places on this issue and i fear that too much power is being given to these polls. I'm going to mention to the editors that certain kinds of polls (rules changes) only be passed with a 2/3rds majority (i.e. changing the existing rules which now allow polls to be passed at 50%.) and maybe require have a "certain" number of voters that have played the game that is about to be changed.
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keep it!

Post by kranser » Tue Aug 06, 2002 1:00 pm

I'm hoping that the voting will go in favour of keeping the 200,000 point trick. Seeing that it is part of the game (even though it's a bug), and you only get the points once per gameplay.

Kranser.

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Post by roncli » Tue Aug 06, 2002 1:06 pm

The TJT wrote:Ronald: For future reference, I would prefer asking top players of any game for their opinions before placing a vote here, or atleast trying get a decent score for a game in question.
Well that's just too bad, then, isn't it? I'm sorry, bug exploitations should be illegal, period, and I commend Pat for putting his foot down on this one.

I don't give a flying fuck if I play the game or not, Tommi. I'm the one confirming the scores and making sure everything is done right. Bug exploitations are *NOT* right, no matter what the game! Now, I have no power to make the changes myself, but I sure as hell am going to bring this subject to attention of someone who can. And be sure that in the future if I find a scoring bug in another game, you'll see something about it here. YOU thinking that *I* should have a top score on it isn't gonna stop me.
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Post by roncli » Tue Aug 06, 2002 1:54 pm

Chad wrote:I do feel your pain of potentially (although not likely) losing your great scores as 1rst places on this issue and i fear that too much power is being given to these polls. I'm going to mention to the editors that certain kinds of polls (rules changes) only be passed with a 2/3rds majority (i.e. changing the existing rules which now allow polls to be passed at 50%.) and maybe require have a "certain" number of voters that have played the game that is about to be changed.
While I believe that the polls have more power than they should, I think the changes to the system should lie in the editor's and the regulation coordinator's hands, giving them the power necessary to keep things in line, and not in the general public's arena. Not allowing the public to speak up about something they may not like is generally bad.

For example, I feel that the rule allowing the RC, or Pat, to kill a vote is too limited. In this instance, if Pat kills this vote, nothing changes. However, that's what he wants is something to change. Instead, he should be able to say that in order for this trick to be allowed, 2/3 of the vote must be reached, otherwise it is not allowed. Also, the editors should be able to make this kind of decision as well, not individually, but with as a collective, with 2/3 or more agreeing on it.

So let's say, hypothetically, that Pat is in favor of not allowing the bug, while 2/3 of the editors are in favor of allowing the bug. Their decisions should then cancel out, and the poll would continue normally, with >50% needed to pass. In this case, the vote would allow the bug, and I'd shutup. :)

Basically, I believe the solution here is to make the polls less powerful is not to limit the democracy, but to grant more of it to the people in power.
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agree

Post by kranser » Tue Aug 06, 2002 2:04 pm

Yes, I agree that rule changes based on 50% of the public vote does give too much power to the public.

I agree with Roncli that a 2/3 vote should always be necessary to make a rule change. Also do we need to set a vote limit on the 2/3 vote, i.e. if 1 or 2 people vote for, and no-one votes no, it's hardly a public conclusion. Maybe we need a rule that says that atleast 7 (?) votes need to be placed?

I can't comment on the editors vote - as I'm not sure how this voting works. When you talk about editors votes, do you mean that a 2/3 editors vote can overrule a public vote that is 2/3 in favour? Is the editors vote done as a separate poll on some editors board, or included in the public vote on this board?

Regards,
Kranser.

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Re: agree

Post by roncli » Tue Aug 06, 2002 2:55 pm

kranser wrote:I agree with Roncli that a 2/3 vote should always be necessary to make a rule change. Also do we need to set a vote limit on the 2/3 vote, i.e. if 1 or 2 people vote for, and no-one votes no, it's hardly a public conclusion. Maybe we need a rule that says that atleast 7 (?) votes need to be placed?
You're agreeing with Chad, not me. :) I am saying that a 2/3 vote should be necessary if Pat or 2/3 of the editors see fit.

Perhaps we should look into changing the vote process so a minimum vote count is required.
kranser wrote:I can't comment on the editors vote - as I'm not sure how this voting works. When you talk about editors votes, do you mean that a 2/3 editors vote can overrule a public vote that is 2/3 in favour? Is the editors vote done as a separate poll on some editors board, or included in the public vote on this board?
No one can override a public vote that is 2/3 in favor, which I agree with.

Right now, editors can only vote on overturning the RC's (Pat's) decision to kill a vote (such as he did with the splits).

I think that editors should be able to determine whether or not one option or another requires 2/3 of the vote if the RC hasn't, or overturn the RC's decision to require the same.

Also, I believe the editors have their own board.
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Post by kranser » Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:04 pm

Voting has ended on this without a 2/3 Public majority decision. Even though it has over 50% majority.

Does this mean that ***PL***'s decision to not allow the bug is upheld and action will be taken (even though less than 50% of the public want this)? Or, will no further action be taken for now?

If ***PL***'s decision stands, then at least we can put this vote to bed!
The problem is, what happens if someone accidently kills 3 birds in a row - will we use the score before they did this manouver and add this to the final score (decucting 200,000 at the end of the game)?

Kranser.

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...

Post by LN2 » Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:00 pm

I remember playing Phoenix and exploiting that "bug" as well. However I remember a slightly different one. :P

It wouldn't reset your score to around 200k each time but always add.

Unfortunately I can not remember the exact details of how I did it. hehe

I will have to try it in MAME to see if I can figure it out again. I remember which level it was on.

It had nothing to do with hitting diagonally moving ships though. :P
The game sounds are annoying as hell so I never really liked the game.

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Post by roncli » Tue Aug 13, 2002 7:03 pm

The vote to allow a bug exploitation somehow passes.

I don't know if Pat can do anything about it, but if he can, I urge him to do so.
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