negative1's Super Breakout (sbrkout) recordings

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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JoustGod
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Post by JoustGod »

Rick (LN2): Please note that I'm not referring to a slow machine whose frameskip fluctuates thus making the game difficult at best. There are methods (read that: external help) that were exploited during a tournament (T2 to be exact) in 1999. I am not going to name the culprits, but the person(s) in question were busted on a game that they also had acquired "amazing" skills. Those of us who knew the game and had played it on coin-op and MAME saw it immediately. The offender(s) quickly rescinded their recordings.

That brings me to my second point. While not necessarily using mspacman as the red flag, I suggest you play piranha-fast instead. That is a game that requires a monumental control skills because of its free-form playfield. Certain Pacman variations also have this feature. Roncli's fast adaptation of this title while ALSO creating fabulous scores on many other titles at the same time leaves me in doubt. The learning curve was just too radical on this. While not impossible...improbable.

But what leaves the biggest question mark over many of our heads here at MARP is the refusal for either of the mentioned players in this thread to provide a rebuttal through a simple single-game recording on a TG version of MAME to shut us up. We would be more than happy to welcome major players...that's never been a problem here at MARP. Just don't try to pull the wool over our eyes like we were born yesterday.
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Post by LN2 »

Rick(ln2), I admire your pacxpertise, but if they have had trouble with speeds and REFUSE making TGmame recordings....The one question remains, why.
Ahh, well i can think of a few good reasons for this one.

I remember when I started playing macmame again this past summer with version 0.60a, I ended up having to replace about 60% of my ROMs cuz they were ones for older versions like 0.36. I almost wish I had saved those older roms also. I think I do have some on a CD backup but not many.

Anyway, logical reasons why someone might not be able to play a game with an older version like 35tgb3 or 37tgb3 might be because they don't have the older version of the game rom for that older version. You can't use most modern versions of roms with those old versions...yet those newer/modern versions are all you can find. I just know when I visited a friend a month ago with his new PC we couldn't get any inps for those older TG versions of mame to run cuz of game rom issues or in 1 case the application saying it needed some .dll file to run which we didn't have cuz the archived mame of that version isn't complete...just the exe. so where do you get those old dlls those old TG versions of mame need?

This new alphamame seems promising...and would be far welcomed for more official records when possible....once TG accepts it.

Personally I have a mac and play in macmame. there is no "TG" mame or alphamame for MacOS so in my case I have no option really. It's gotten to the point I have considered getting a cheap PC but figured even then it isn't worth spending $400 just to satisfy inp requirements. I certainly hope down the road none of my records and scores are questioned. I think I have enough now for games where the inp is cross-platform compatible for people to realize I'm serious when it comes to records.
Btw what do you use for controls?
For most games, especially the pacman type games, I use the cursor keys on my keyboard. For mspac-fast and other variants my high scores are around the 450-500k range...and I hadn't even played the game that much. I really don't think it has much of a learning curve. You just need to generally know how to move around the board initially. It is obvious watching roncli's mspac-fast and other fast recordings that he doesn't know about sit spots and several moves a regular mspac player knows...yet he is still able to easily get through boards. All I mainly see is he is very good at the controls.

I also have an iShock II controller which is pretty much like a PSX controller with analog thumbsticks and various buttons and thumbpad. I don't use it that often but it comes in handy for games like Robotron where the thumbsticks come in handy. I can't see playing Robotron with the keys cuz for one too many keys plus then you need to press combos to get the diagonals etc.
JoustGod wrote:Rick (LN2): Please note that I'm not referring to a slow machine whose frameskip fluctuates thus making the game difficult at best. There are methods (read that: external help) that were exploited during a tournament (T2 to be exact) in 1999.
Well, I'm not aware of any of that so can't comment there. i only got into the whole MARP and MAME thing starting last summer. I had briefly tried macmame a few years ago but found it lacked performance and other features for most games plus back then I was really into playing the quake games online so didn't care for mame much.
That brings me to my second point. While not necessarily using mspacman as the red flag, I suggest you play piranha-fast instead. That is a game that requires a monumental control skills because of its free-form playfield.
Yes, I have played it but not in fast mode. I have played and have the records for Hangly-Man though which half the boards are analogous to the pirahna boards where there are lots of dots and not many if any walls in the middle of the board.
Certain Pacman variations also have this feature. Roncli's fast adaptation of this title while ALSO creating fabulous scores on many other titles at the same time leaves me in doubt. The learning curve was just too radical on this. While not impossible...improbable.
I disagree here. I had not played Hangly-man ever at fast mode...and it had been 15+ years since I had played it at regular speed...with my high score only around 125-150k. In macmame I was able to quickly catch on and get a fairly high score. All those hangly-man scores I have submitted to MARP I obtained on 3 attempts or less. It had almost no learning curve for me and wouldn't for anyone else if you have played pacman at all cuz even though the mazes are different etc., the way the monsters move around is the same.
But what leaves the biggest question mark over many of our heads here at MARP is the refusal for either of the mentioned players in this thread to provide a rebuttal through a simple single-game recording on a TG version of MAME to shut us up.
Yes, I agree to an extent if it was easy to just run one of those older versions. As I stated above, even if I had a PC I would need to get those dll file(s) from someone those older versions of mame need...then also get the older game rom versions...as well as who knows what else.

My refusal to not do it wouldn't be because I'm hiding something, but because it's a major pain in the arse to get it running on my system...or in my particular case...on a mac where there isn't a TG version.

It's a shame the "tournament" type features can't make it into the main mame builds. It would be cool to just have a "tournament" mode that forces automatic frameskip and makes sure the game speed stays above 95% or some figure like that, disables pausing, etc. and if the player did pause or changed frameskip etc. then the inp file recording would stop when in tournament mode. If you wanted to record inp files for fun using cheats etc. you could still do that too by just not engaging tournament mode.

I would really like to participate in Deca 2003 or MARP tournaments or WCC etc. but can't cuz only those TG versions are used...so I don't bother.

With the exception of the mspac-fast scores, I and/or negative1 have beaten many of roncli's fast scores. For ones where he still has the top score, I likely just haven't played that one enough yet. I only played a few of them over a week...and haven't since...been busy playing regular speed pacman type games. I have some scores that would rank quite well but just haven't submitted them cuz I know it wasn't really that good of a game by me.

From what I see though I see nothing in roncli's inps to suggest he is doing any tricks etc. If he has some previous history that leads to suspecting the integrity of his scores of playing the game honestly, then I can definitely understand wanting him to play with some official TG or alphamame version. I know if I were in his shoes and could just play a game with that to shut others up I would do it in a heartbeat....but would need assistance to get those dll and older game roms that are needed for those older TG versions.
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Post by JoustGod »

I don't know about negative1, but I am well aware that roncli had ample opportunity to rectify any problems concerning older vs. newer roms and other files. He was a full-time resident of #marp and was quite adept at sending and receiving files as well as requesting anything he needed. He was no wallflower to be sure. If I'm not mistaken...correct me someone if I am...I don't think old vs. new roms is an issue where the pacgames are concerned as I don't have problems switching between the 35tg and newest versions of MAME.
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Post by Chad »

yeah i'm affraid inability and rom differences weren't a major case for not submiting for either of these two. I think there was a mspacman prom that might have been slightly different but i mean that rom change happened before both came on the scene, so i mean if you could have got the old one it's pretty likely you could get the new one. it's a shame.
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Post by LN2 »

well, all I know is on my friend's PC trying different things over 60 minutes we weren't able to get any of the MARP scores for mspac that do use a TG mame version or the Rick Fothergill Jrpac inp either due to game rom issues...so the modern ones certainly don't work with those old versions like 0.35 or 0.37 and also a claimed missing dll file we had no idea where to find.

I wasn't trying to say that was a reason for roncli. I'm very aware is is/was a confirmer for scores here at MARP so had access or already had the older roms etc.

I was stating though that might be why others don't use those versions.
I know for the golden age classics like pacman type games etc. I would use an official version sanctioned by TG if such a thing existed for the macos.

What kind of trickery are you talking about though? Are there builds of mame that allow you to play the game in slow-motion intentionally at 50% speed or something? Other than that I can't think of any way to dishonestly play a pacman type game. I don't suspect ron's fast mode version scores. They seem honestly played to me.

However, I also notice he hasn't been around at all since he submitted those mspac-fast scores. If he was still around and submitting new scores since then then you could get on his case for not doing a tg mame run of one of those mspac-fast games as a demonstration....not necessarily having to even set a record score...just get 500k on it and let you guys view it...then you could see he has the same playing style etc. as his 0.61 version or whatever version he used.

A big reason why I don't suspect his scores is because he doesn't even eat that many monsters on the early boards. He just survives through them and eats monsters conveniently without attempts to group them etc. for better eating. :P If he was playing it in slow-motion etc. he likely would be able to eat more monsters. I know in my games I have about 30-50k more in points after the last board the monsters turn blue versus what Roncli has.

I'm not sure how you can even suspect his scores weren't played honestly given others have beaten several of those scores now....whether posted or not.

If you don't believe his play then you likely won't believe some of mine either...and you likely won't even get to view the inp unless you have a Mac handy cuz for whatever reason I don't think the inp files are cross-platform compatible for any of the pacman type games except SuperPac. :|
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Post by JoustGod »

Rick,

Why are you taking this as a personal attack? It is not. As a matter of fact, I tend to think you are the player you say you are. Please don't start kindling flames here. We did not begin the process of getting on roncli's or negative1's case after their absence. They were contacted a number of times while still active at MARP. The reason you are seeing perhaps more concern about it is the fact that they left their mark and then disappeared mysteriously without once ever acknowledging our concerns while they were here. And yes, it ticks some of us off that this situation hangs.

As far as the assessment of roncli not having grouping techniques of any sort (at least seemingly), I would think that's another red flag. But, that's my opinion. And at the time he posted his scores, they were top scores. So, he wasn't merely trying to post good scores. Even his commentary for some of his .inp pac-posts points to his objective.

The dll file for 35TG MAME has been a problem for several players. But, easily fixed with snooping around MARP for the file itself. Someone help me with this one as I seem to remember the file being available at MARP.

Yes, there are slowdown programs. One in particular that we think was used in the T2 tourney I mentioned before. While this may not be a big deal to an expert player like you. I tend to think it would help those with marginal to decent abilities at a particular game.

I hope you continue to post the great scores you are posting. Like I said, this has nothing to do with any of us doubting you.
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Post by kfx »

I think it must be this one 'audiow32.dll' that can be fond were the old MAME versions are.

Or you can use this link here :

http://marp.retrogames.com/exe/audiow32.zip
storm

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Post by JoustGod »

FYI: I just checked out all pacman and clones (11) and mspcman and clones (6). I was able to play ALL of them on either the TG MAME or the win62 version of MAME. So rom differences shouldn't be an issue. The only game that gave me problems was jrpacman. That is the one that would need access to the older rom set in order to play on the TG version. Most likely the audio32.dll is the main culprit in getting the TG version to behave. That was a common problem for many of us initially with this version. The .dll will fix things right up.
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Post by LN2 »

thanks...I'll try that dll in VirtualPC on my mac to see it that works.

BTW, I don't play in VPC cuz the performance just isn't quite high enough even for games like the pacman type to play. I can watch or check my macmame inps with it though to see if cross-platform compatible for certain games. That's how I know and put that in my comments on submitting...although i end up watching it in slow motion even with frameskip 6 or 8 hehe.

I wasn't taking any of the above personally so I'm sorry if i gave the impression I did. I had actually viewed a couple of ron's inps though for those fast/turbo mspacs just cuz I was curious how good he was....and was surprised to see he wasn't really grouping or using sit spots etc. but just having really good control and running circles around the monsters from the ms pac speed.

From the couple inps I watched I didn't see anything that would have me questioning the integrity of the score accomplished there. Could he playing it at less than 95-100% speed? Sure, I guess he could...whether intentional or not. However, I think he can accomplish what he did at 100% speed so don't suspect anything.

in terms of my own scores...i have several I haven't uploaded cuz I know I can do even better if I play it more plus i don't bother submitting scores if only good for like 6th place. I have a nice pacman(midway) score I am going to submit in the next couple of nights. Unfortunately the inp doesn't sync properly time-wise in the pc versions of mame. I have video taped my inp playback in macmame for submission to Twin Galaxies though so it will be verified/confirmed through them.

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