At the end of the day, MARP will not allow nvram. I've excepted this under protest. It's very relevant for this game to have nvram, but as someone said it'll open a can of worms regarding other games.
A pity. Because as QT said, we'd like to have a decent go at beating the TG 'World Record' on this game. We can't. And ironically thats why I don't really play this game anymore ( bar the odd game here and there). I don't have a level playing field.
Kelly's TG WR was acheived using nvram.
And judging by the voting, it's obvious the people voting 'NO', are not HS players. If they were, they would vote 'YES'. Why Special Rules cannot be implemented for this game is one for the Editors.
Cheers,
AL ( retired )
Hyper Sports NVRAM
Moderator: BBH
Well done DSK 
Again perfect apples, wow!
Notice that you did not get any moles, so if you had used nvram...that wouldn't have helped you to score higher.
What do YOU think, should nv be allowed or not at HS?
If not, then why?
My opinion is that it should be allowed, at HS...I'm too tired at the moment try to legitimate my views of the subject...Have been sick for 3 days now. Will get back to the subject tomorrow. All read Al's comments carefully.
Cheers,
TJT
Again perfect apples, wow!
Notice that you did not get any moles, so if you had used nvram...that wouldn't have helped you to score higher.
What do YOU think, should nv be allowed or not at HS?
If not, then why?
My opinion is that it should be allowed, at HS...I'm too tired at the moment try to legitimate my views of the subject...Have been sick for 3 days now. Will get back to the subject tomorrow. All read Al's comments carefully.
Cheers,
TJT
Rule 2d wrote:NVRAM, including the default NVRAM, is prohibited, with the exception of extraordinary circumstances. ......etc.......
Re: re....
Alex..what's the problem? you both can still go for the record...just not under MARP rules.AL wrote:A pity. Because as QT said, we'd like to have a decent go at beating the TG 'World Record' on this game. We can't. And ironically thats why I don't really play this game anymore ( bar the odd game here and there). I don't have a level playing field.
if going for a TG world record then just do it. I would have to check to see if nvram for Hyper Sports is allowed for TGTS-MAME. I can't remember offhand. It might be where it requires a discussion again among TG staff. I can guarantee that no-breath trick for swimming would't be allowed.
If allowed, then what's the problem? You just submit it to TG. You obviously wouldn't submit it to MARP given it would end up getting zeroed out.
I don't know what I think. Like you said NV wouldnt have helped my score any (the 6k on the horse might heh) but even if I had wanted to use NV I can't becuase the 'acceptable' versions of mame for inps don't let you regardless.The TJT wrote:Well done DSK
Again perfect apples, wow!
Notice that you did not get any moles, so if you had used nvram...that wouldn't have helped you to score higher.
What do YOU think, should nv be allowed or not at HS?
If not, then why?
My opinion is that it should be allowed, at HS...I'm too tired at the moment try to legitimate my views of the subject...Have been sick for 3 days now. Will get back to the subject tomorrow. All read Al's comments carefully.
Cheers,
TJT
Rule 2d wrote:NVRAM, including the default NVRAM, is prohibited, with the exception of extraordinary circumstances. ......etc.......
If there was a version that let you use and a 'default' NV file that everyone used then I don't see a problem but when an older recrding uses it yet newer ones can't then there is a problem. Rock and hard place.
I don't really understand the logic behind not being able to go for the TG record - AL has very high scores without NV, failing at stuff which are 'easily' passable. If he were to get past 9.60 horse he'd 'only' have to score around 60-80k to hit the TG record before failing (but scoring 12k) at 45s swimming. Even without moles 55k is easily gettable even at that late stage. Anyway. And besides, with the breath trick 45s is doable too...
Finally, as I have said elsewhere here I think that the HS players should decide. But, my gut feeling is that now that there are secure mame sets that won't let you use it it puts players who aren't retired(!!) at a disadvantage when scores listed use it. Back to the rock again. I just don't know what the right answer is I guess. Again, repeating myself, but both you and AL don't 'need' to use NV to get the hi-score here or the TG record if you really wanted it. I reckon I would've got around 500k if I had passed 9.60 horse, maybe 510k. Not that far off really....
Adi
#Find another way to me
Find another way and make me free
Then you hear my voice 'don't find another wayyyyy'
Oh i've cried for you, please follow me oh follow meee
Find another way and make me free
Then you hear my voice 'don't find another wayyyyy'
Oh i've cried for you, please follow me oh follow meee
Background: At HS pole vault you can get moles that are worth points, if you succeed getting over current height with maximum speed. You need very accurate timing to do this.
Points for the moles are, so that if you get consecutive moles the bonus gets higher: 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000, 8000, 8000....
If you don't get max speed(timing) or foul, bonus goes down to 1000 with next mole.
But, you get mole only if you don't get a "world record"(top 3 records for an event) with your jump. Hyperspt.nv is used to store world records, and without it, the world records are too low to get many consecutive moles...Can lose tens of thousands points in the first round and some at later rounds.
At arcade, world records stay in nvram, so world records don't get in your way to score good molepoints. Most mole points can be achieved at first round, since you start at lower height.
And if you didn't know this before, you might be more confused now...
hyperspt.nv seems to be very compatible with different mame versions. I tried my mame36 hypersport submission nvram file, and it worked fine with Wolf87.
Using that would put all players at level playing field, and level with TG record. I see it's like me losing points if nv is not allowed.
getting mole points is very relevant part of the game. It requires skill and timing and "bottle" to get those mole points.
I don't see a reason why any HS player would object use of hyperspt.nv.
Hell, aren't we supposed to play the game as it was at arcades back then.
Not using nv would take very important part of the game away, scorewise and skillwise.
Al=yes, TJT=yes,DSK=?
That voting is bit old now. Maybe wording of the poll did affect outcome. There was not pre-voting discussion. Also, too many of those who voted, do not play the game themselves...atleast are not experts
IMO, these kind of game specific issues should be discussed amongst players of the game...as we are doing now. I don't see any reason for everyone interested and feeling they have knowledge enough, to tell their opinions here public: vote so that we can see who voted which option. This should apply to other game specific discussions also(proposition). After all why should people who don't play the game be involved in voting....
(I remember one nice public vote concerning Playchoice10-suprmario timer, where Beejay(I think) voted for "do not allow"....because hes own words he hated the game...lol)
I'm sure Kelly would've used it too, if he had known about it, and if he would've needed it to get past swimming. It would be a bad idea to make different rules for TG than Marp with that trick.
As quoted earlier, rule 2d says:"NVRAM, including the default NVRAM, is prohibited, with the exception of extraordinary circumstances"
I think this is one that kind of circumstance. There are other games, where use of nv IS accepted. For example I did use that at 720 recording, game just would not playback without special nvram.
Originally rule for nvram was accepted, because it affects playback. marp newcomers didn't understand the use of it. I think the original conversation even claimed that it causes too much work for playbackers...yeah, right...
At some games, for example Gauntlet2, it would be possible to use nvram to give you set of easier levels than without. NV works as a kind of save state at that case. So generally use of nv is not a good idea. Yet if at some game gameplay or playbackability REQUIRES nv, then special rules should be edited.
I hope we get satisfying agreement for all HS players at this, and we don't have to talk this next year again
Thanks you,
TJT
Points for the moles are, so that if you get consecutive moles the bonus gets higher: 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000, 8000, 8000....
If you don't get max speed(timing) or foul, bonus goes down to 1000 with next mole.
But, you get mole only if you don't get a "world record"(top 3 records for an event) with your jump. Hyperspt.nv is used to store world records, and without it, the world records are too low to get many consecutive moles...Can lose tens of thousands points in the first round and some at later rounds.
At arcade, world records stay in nvram, so world records don't get in your way to score good molepoints. Most mole points can be achieved at first round, since you start at lower height.
And if you didn't know this before, you might be more confused now...
You can use nvram at CLI, type -allownvram.dskys wrote: but even if I had wanted to use NV I can't becuase the 'acceptable' versions of mame for inps don't let you regardless.
hyperspt.nv seems to be very compatible with different mame versions. I tried my mame36 hypersport submission nvram file, and it worked fine with Wolf87.
I agree, same rules for everyone. How about if I make a default nv with fancy polevault records as a player AAA?If there was a version that let you use and a 'default' NV file that everyone used then I don't see a problem but when an older recrding uses it yet newer ones can't then there is a problem. Rock and hard place.
Using that would put all players at level playing field, and level with TG record. I see it's like me losing points if nv is not allowed.
getting mole points is very relevant part of the game. It requires skill and timing and "bottle" to get those mole points.
Yes, just add special rules and link to hypersport.nv with pole records good enough(this perevents making better nv AFTER recording).Al wrote:Why Special Rules cannot be implemented for this game is one for the Editors.
I don't see a reason why any HS player would object use of hyperspt.nv.
Hell, aren't we supposed to play the game as it was at arcades back then.
Not using nv would take very important part of the game away, scorewise and skillwise.
Yet, I feel, and Al feels that reaching a score that we would be VERY proud of does require nv. Without it I'd feel reluctant to try improve my score, if beaten. (I'm sure DSK will beat it soon anyway)dskys wrote:I don't really understand the logic behind not being able to go for the TG record
Yes, use nv:dskys wrote: Finally, as I have said elsewhere here I think that the HS players should decide.
Al=yes, TJT=yes,DSK=?
That voting is bit old now. Maybe wording of the poll did affect outcome. There was not pre-voting discussion. Also, too many of those who voted, do not play the game themselves...atleast are not experts
IMO, these kind of game specific issues should be discussed amongst players of the game...as we are doing now. I don't see any reason for everyone interested and feeling they have knowledge enough, to tell their opinions here public: vote so that we can see who voted which option. This should apply to other game specific discussions also(proposition). After all why should people who don't play the game be involved in voting....
(I remember one nice public vote concerning Playchoice10-suprmario timer, where Beejay(I think) voted for "do not allow"....because hes own words he hated the game...lol)
Who would you ask? There must be damn many pages at marpforums, if you count previous discussions on old forums too, about this. I guess Mark Longridge have read all the blahblahblah about subject, so he should allow use of nvram at this particular game. Yet I'm not sure if Mark can be reached nowadays, and if he is part of TG anymore. Neither am I aware of current TG staff mame posts. Ask same time for some public TG mame staff annoncements and adding mame scores into database, thanks.ln2 wrote: I would have to check to see if nvram for Hyper Sports is allowed for TGTS-MAME. I can't remember offhand
Never say never... Why not? It works at arcade machine, I tested at Funspot 2000. It requires skill.I can guarantee that no-breath trick for swimming would't be allowed
I'm sure Kelly would've used it too, if he had known about it, and if he would've needed it to get past swimming. It would be a bad idea to make different rules for TG than Marp with that trick.
Can of worms...I think not.Al wrote:At the end of the day, MARP will not allow nvram. I've excepted this under protest. It's very relevant for this game to have nvram, but as someone said it'll open a can of worms regarding other games.
As quoted earlier, rule 2d says:"NVRAM, including the default NVRAM, is prohibited, with the exception of extraordinary circumstances"
I think this is one that kind of circumstance. There are other games, where use of nv IS accepted. For example I did use that at 720 recording, game just would not playback without special nvram.
Originally rule for nvram was accepted, because it affects playback. marp newcomers didn't understand the use of it. I think the original conversation even claimed that it causes too much work for playbackers...yeah, right...
At some games, for example Gauntlet2, it would be possible to use nvram to give you set of easier levels than without. NV works as a kind of save state at that case. So generally use of nv is not a good idea. Yet if at some game gameplay or playbackability REQUIRES nv, then special rules should be edited.
I hope we get satisfying agreement for all HS players at this, and we don't have to talk this next year again
Thanks you,
TJT
Exactly. Not sure if it was so obvious for everyone not being a mame dev... Thanks for reading my post thoroughmahlemiut wrote:Why wouldn't it be? It not like the game will suddenly decide to change the way it stores records.The TJT wrote:hyperspt.nv seems to be very compatible with different mame versions.
I am not an expert at HS, but the discussion about allowing nvram or not is quite interesting. I would tend to agree with TJT and AL that it would be much better if nvram were allowed for this game.
My suggestion for really fixing this type of situation would involve an enhancement to MAME itself. The basic idea would be to add the contents of nvram into the header of a recorded inp. On playback, MAME would need to rewrite the nvram with the information from the header but playback should still work as expected.
My suggestion for really fixing this type of situation would involve an enhancement to MAME itself. The basic idea would be to add the contents of nvram into the header of a recorded inp. On playback, MAME would need to rewrite the nvram with the information from the header but playback should still work as expected.
OK, I concede a little ground in light of the above from Tommi.
I wasn't aware that the CL version allowed NVram whilst recording as I don't use it. Assuming TJTs facts are correct and I expect they will be then fair enough.
However, the idea of using some predetermined NVram does in itself present a couple of small issues that I can think of
Firstly, who is to say what an acceptable record is on Pole Vault? I'm not 100% sure that the records that are preset matter, but if they are so high that people will never attain them (I mean normal people, heh) then a little of the spirit of the game is lost. Personally, I think 5.91 or 5.92, in 1st, 2nd and 3rd is about right. Any higher is difficult to get on the earlier rounds for most people and not every machine in the past would have had records at this level.
I think that all the other records should probably be 'default'. Make sense? I know it doesn't effect scoring but it does effect ego
I don't currently use the command line version, but I guess that's not really a problem...
I doubt I'll beat your score any time soon Tommi - must have played for about an hour earlier just doing 9.60 over and over - didn't pass it once!
. For me, that inp is probably my most consistent ever - very few cock ups to speak of either.
Anyway, if a suitable NVram is provided then I suppose Yay - but it does still present a problem for all the existing scores that didn't use it (or any).
Whatcha think?
oo edit! I forgot to mention this: With a high record, it almost makes sense to deliberately fail vaults (after at least one height has been cleared) if you don't hit the board perfect for your mole. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but wanted to point it out.
I wasn't aware that the CL version allowed NVram whilst recording as I don't use it. Assuming TJTs facts are correct and I expect they will be
then fair enough. However, the idea of using some predetermined NVram does in itself present a couple of small issues that I can think of
Firstly, who is to say what an acceptable record is on Pole Vault? I'm not 100% sure that the records that are preset matter, but if they are so high that people will never attain them (I mean normal people, heh) then a little of the spirit of the game is lost. Personally, I think 5.91 or 5.92, in 1st, 2nd and 3rd is about right. Any higher is difficult to get on the earlier rounds for most people and not every machine in the past would have had records at this level.
I think that all the other records should probably be 'default'. Make sense? I know it doesn't effect scoring but it does effect ego
I don't currently use the command line version, but I guess that's not really a problem...
I doubt I'll beat your score any time soon Tommi - must have played for about an hour earlier just doing 9.60 over and over - didn't pass it once!
. For me, that inp is probably my most consistent ever - very few cock ups to speak of either. Anyway, if a suitable NVram is provided then I suppose Yay - but it does still present a problem for all the existing scores that didn't use it (or any).
Whatcha think?
oo edit! I forgot to mention this: With a high record, it almost makes sense to deliberately fail vaults (after at least one height has been cleared) if you don't hit the board perfect for your mole. Don't know if that's a good or bad thing, but wanted to point it out.
#Find another way to me
Find another way and make me free
Then you hear my voice 'don't find another wayyyyy'
Oh i've cried for you, please follow me oh follow meee
Find another way and make me free
Then you hear my voice 'don't find another wayyyyy'
Oh i've cried for you, please follow me oh follow meee
Good, looks like atleast top3 HS players are in favour of NVRAM. If anyone has issues against, tell now.
I made an hyperspt.nv, which has pole lists of 5,94-5,93-5,93 that I think is quite possible combination to have at arcade if good players visited the game ...with initials AAA
This is how I get it to work:
1. delete old hyperspt.nv
2. type: "mamep87 hyperspt" ...wait to see records, exit
(I don't know why you have to do 1 and 2 and not just go straight into 3)
3. copy hyperspt.nv into nvram-folder, click yes (replace old)
4. to start recording, type: mamep87 hyperspt -record hyp -allownvram
DBH's suggestion to include the routine into wolfmame is a good idea. That's up to Barry if he wants to add that.
And yes, that 9,60 horse is a killer, I don't know other way to pass that than to spin as fast as possible, and try to fluke the perfect landing ...Not so easy swimming or skeets before that either...
Cheers,
TJT
I made an hyperspt.nv, which has pole lists of 5,94-5,93-5,93 that I think is quite possible combination to have at arcade if good players visited the game
...with initials AAAThis is how I get it to work:
1. delete old hyperspt.nv
2. type: "mamep87 hyperspt" ...wait to see records, exit
(I don't know why you have to do 1 and 2 and not just go straight into 3)
3. copy hyperspt.nv into nvram-folder, click yes (replace old)
4. to start recording, type: mamep87 hyperspt -record hyp -allownvram
DBH's suggestion to include the routine into wolfmame is a good idea. That's up to Barry if he wants to add that.
And yes, that 9,60 horse is a killer, I don't know other way to pass that than to spin as fast as possible, and try to fluke the perfect landing ...Not so easy swimming or skeets before that either...
Cheers,
TJT
I have no idea why we don'tmahlemiut wrote:And yet, we cannot get extra modes in SFA3 because that would require using NVRAM.
What kind of extra modes? Why you, ehhh I mean we, need them? Is there any conversation somewhere around forum. Is this a worm thing? Moles eat worms for supper. Or is this molework?Little explanation, please...
