Elevator Action leeching

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Zhorik
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Elevator Action leeching

Post by Zhorik » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:41 pm

Almighty Dread has an interesting new Elevator Action replay http://replay.marpirc.net/inp/e/7/0/scl ... olf106.zip

Unfortunately I think it clearly violates MARP rule 2.h - "Point or life leeching is strongly discouraged, and banned on some games, as described in the banned techniques list, or in the specific game's special rules. You cannot continuously gain points without some degree of risk and you must keep moving to complete a level."

He stays on the 7th floor of the first building for over an hour killing enemies for 100 points each. He finally advances and clears the first building with over 80K. Most players on Elevator Action will point press until the music gets fast and the action gets much harder to handle, but by staying on the 7th floor it is easier since there are no doors and all enemies have to take the elevators to try to reach you. He's clearly a good player, but I don't think we want to see this sort of leeching on the game at MARP. Perhaps make the special rules for the game clearly state that once the music gets fast the player needs to make an attempt to finish the level?

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Chad
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Chad » Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:05 am

It's an interesting spot. I think staying in the middle platform on 7, you still have some danger, and probably wouldn't qualify as leeching. But, if you freeze the spy's left elevator, forcing the spy to go up and get locked on 9 while on your elevator going up, then go all the way to the left on 7, it becomes infinite and not challenging. Only three spies spawn at a time and the most dangerous encounter you see is a double fire hi/lo which you can jump over consistently if timed well. The reg coordinator should decide if leeching or not, or poll if it's allowed or not.
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Zhorik
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Zhorik » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:51 pm

It's blatant leeching regardless of whether there is danger involved. Rule 2.h says "you must keep moving to complete a level". I'm not sure what possible reading or interpretation of that rule allows you to stay in the exact same spot for over an hour shooting respawning enemies.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by INNUENDO » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:52 pm

I´ve watched the inp and the player is great. Very good moves and he knows the game.

About the play: I did not like the way that he used to do the points. In Ghosts´n Goblins, it is possible don´t die when the time runs out. So, the player can do points infinitely. For that reason, it´s forbidden to do this.

In Rygar, when the time finish, comes the "death". But you´re in risk all the time. Enemies appears from all sides and the death do not can touch in the main character.

In this replay of EA, one spy stay stopped in one elevator and appears three more. Knowing how to jump the bullets,you´re safe. I don´t know is Skito knows, but there´s another case that happen when the music changes: The enemies lay down in the floor. All the four (the maximum number of enemies in the screen). In 7th floor, even if they lay down, it´s easy to kill them because they´re in the elevators.

I agree with Zhorik and I vote to ban this technicque. He did a great play after stage 1. He can be number one without use this method.
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by BBH » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:05 pm

He's definitely a great player, there's certainly some skill involved with this leeching because you have to keep moving around and paying attention to where the enemies are, it's not like you just park yourself in a safe spot and keep firing.

But that said, I agree that this is definitely against the spirit of the game and should not be allowed. An hour spent on the same floor killing enemies does not make for a very entertaining replay either.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Chad » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:27 am

no question the player does knows their stuff about elevator action, but if they think this isn't an unlimited leeching technique then they don't know much about competitive gaming and boring play. Please enlighten us with skill where it has to do with leeching at risk. There is no question the leeching can keep going like that indefinitely. There was no point in the hour of leeching when any player (even slightly knowlegable in the way spies shoot) would be at danger. The only reason they stopped is because they got bored.

Yep, the music did change, spies become the hardest they can be with instantaneous firing and unpredictable movement. But (1) it's level one, the speed of the spies and bullets is at the slowest possible, (2) with the elevator frozen only 3 spies to look out for, (3) with the elevator frozen the player is always 2-5 elevators away from a spy from one direction, so death chances are infinitesimally low when you can see and expect everything coming from a mile away. The only way a player could die in that situation is if they fall asleep.

http://replay.marpirc.net/r/elevator
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Phil Lamat » Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:56 pm

Chad wrote:The reg coordinator should decide if leeching or not, or poll if it's allowed or not.
Hard for me to decide on this case. I've never been found of this game, and my knowledge of it is very poor. Maybe a poll would be better.
Last edited by Phil Lamat on Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by mahlemiut » Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:40 pm

Finally watched it last night. Was thoroughly bored.

If it was more hanging around floors 1-6 like he did after about 75k, then I could probably live with that. But camping out on floor 7, with one less enemy to look out for, does not make for a fun time.
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Phil Lamat » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:38 am

To complete what I've said before, for me yes it's leeching, but I've always consider that to get a good score on this game, you have to make sort of micro-leeching in every part.
It's sometimes hard to determine in all inputs if you temporize or not to get some points, and what is the limit as this bloody game doesn't have a timer.

For Almighty's input, I see two kinds of leeching :
from around 14000-25300 pts, he stays on middle of floor 7 and kills spies (looks hard to do but can be made infinitely ?)
from 25300 to around 73000, elevator is blocked and leeching seems easier then.

So I think we can at least banned the "elevator blocked" technic, but for the rest ?
What special rule do we need ?
A limitation for each floor in term of frames ?

One more think :
inputs from Skito and Innuendo do complete 7th building, Almighty's only completes 6th building ;
special scoring based on number of buildings completed ?

Waiting for your opinions and/or ideas before launching a poll.

For me this game is a good candidate for Time Trial, no more (don't blame me, it's because I suck at this game)

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by INNUENDO » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:39 am

Phil, great suggestions. :) :wink:

Well, in my opinion, this works like Ghosts´n Goblins time trick. You die only if you want. My suggestion is to ban this way to earn points.

I´ve learned with Skito to do the leeching smashing enemies using the elevator on 1st floor. When the music turns different, the agents are more agile, shoot more faster, lay down in the floor and the main character has difficulties to use the elavator. For that reason, it´s dangerous stay there for a long time. Or be, it´s not a problem to do leeching. The problem is the kind of way to do the points. Without risk is very unfair.
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by BBH » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:16 am

BBH wrote:He's definitely a great player, there's certainly some skill involved with this leeching because you have to keep moving around and paying attention to where the enemies are, it's not like you just park yourself in a safe spot and keep firing.
Silly me, I made this post before I'd even seen the part where the elevator gets stuck! Hahaha, oops.

Yeah that hiding on the left side is even lamer, just crouch and fire and occasionally jump. Definitely ban this.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by CrazyKongFan » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:32 am

I wonder if a good rule would be allowing to point press until the music changes, then make your exit.

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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by INNUENDO » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:58 am

Well, why not to do a rule prohibiting this unfair leeching in 7th floor?
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by ballas » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:18 am

Isn't this type of leeching covered under the fact that you need to make some attempt to finish the stage as well?
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Re: Elevator Action leeching

Post by Zhorik » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:54 pm

So what are next steps on this? It seems there is consensus that at least the replay is not valid as submitted and should be either zeroed or at least have the score adjusted. I just want to make sure some actual final decision and action is taken one way or another.

Almighty Dread, your forum account has been activated, so you should be able to join the discussion here now too.

-George

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