Leaderboard Cut-Off: Discussion

[Francois Daniel]

As I've said I've deleted some scores. And I'm very happy to have deleted some scores where I've spend many and many tries for made them because they give me only the 8th place and 20 points. But I'm also very enjoyed to have keep some others where I play only once but who take me on 4th-5th place with only 1 point...

What I would like said is :
- LB points said nothing, those who fear of these little points owned by hundred players are those who really take care of their place on the LB

- 0 LB point on Do Donpachi is better than 85 LB points on Allysium (or one of many games who grant many points without playing)

- Give only few points for few players will grant only one thing for marp : 1337

- All scores on marp are valluable, because they're all our best records, even if they grant only 1 point, even if they grant 0 point.

- I thanks the one (I don't know who) who begin this battle against ABC's Player... against those who haven't the skill for reach top 3 on games... against those who play for fun and not for LB points. Because marp will become a 1337 mame site

- 25 marpers have vote and take decision for hundred marpers. For me, its something very strange.

- I'm sorry for all of you who have many marp email because of all of my deleted scores.

Francois

[Chad]

So we're still waiting for arguments for cut-off points other than 3rd. If nobody can argue for 5th or 7th there shouldn't be a poll. 3rd place should just be set as the cut-off point.

you just argued this point yourself in another thread.

Don't delete the Fire Truck recording though. That's a true MARP classic.

firetrk (Fire Truck) #10th : 60 fhqwhgads@Team9ch.jp [7PTS]
firetrk (Fire Truck) #11th : 30 Wonder@jvrm.net [3PTS]

would these players submit these extremely entertaining inps if they get zero points?

[Francois Daniel]

So we're still waiting for arguments for cut-off points other than 3rd. If nobody can argue for 5th or 7th there shouldn't be a poll. 3rd place should just be set as the cut-off point.

The only thing I can said, is your 3rd cut-off is in marp LB yet. Why don't you let the things as before ? One ranking who use the green scoring in the LB and one ranking with our good old system. And everybody will be happy.

Onether thing. Maybe I've missed something, but it seem to me it must be over 66% of vote for a poll results will be effictive. Or I'm wrong ?

Francois

[Francois Daniel]

would these players submit these extremely entertaining inps if they get zero points?

Maybe, maybe not. I dont know.

Francois

[LordGaz]

So we're still waiting for arguments for cut-off points other than 3rd. If nobody can argue for 5th or 7th there shouldn't be a poll. 3rd place should just be set as the cut-off point.

Why cutoff at 3? Make the cutoff at 1!

Seriously, MARP is (was) a friendly site because everyone who uploads is participating in friendly competition. Looking at the MARP Loads page there's a recent 118980 score for Mappy which makes 10th place. Ok this might be a "junk" score for some but I certainly couldn't get this score without some effort. By having a cutoff point you're blocking some people's fun.

Buttermaker, what about my Olympic decathlon analogy. They have a leaderboard where all the participant get points, there are no athletes who get "junk" times, throw "junk" distances and lift "junk" weights etc. and that's FACT. Only at the end of the competion do the top 3 get medals.

The MARP leaderboard is very similar, everyone scores points on the games whatever position it is and then a leaderboard is compiled from the totals and that's LOGIC.

- 25 marpers have vote and take decision for hundred marpers. For me, its something very strange.

Yes, too small a sample.

Cheers, Gaz.

[Francois Daniel]

Why cutoff at 3? Make the cutoff at 1!.

Yes ! Vote for a highly elitist site !

Seriously, MARP is (was) a friendly site because everyone who uploads is participating in friendly competition. Looking at the MARP Loads page there's a recent 118980 score for Mappy which makes 10th place. Ok this might be a "junk" score for some but I certainly couldn't get this score without some effort. By having a cutoff point you're blocking some people's fun.

Yes, it's exactly why I'd post some little inp.

Buttermaker, what about my Olympic decathlon analogy. They have a leaderboard where all the participant get points, there are no athletes who get "junk" times, throw "junk" distances and lift "junk" weights etc. and that's FACT. Only at the end of the competion do the top 3 get medals.

The MARP leaderboard is very similar, everyone scores points on the games whatever position it is and then a leaderboard is compiled from the totals and that's LOGIC.

Excellent analogy Gaz, I totally agreed with you.

Francois

[Frankie]

So we're still waiting for arguments for cut-off points other than 3rd. If nobody can argue for 5th or 7th there shouldn't be a poll. 3rd place should just be set as the cut-off point.

Why cutoff at 3? Make the cutoff at 1!

Seriously, MARP is (was) a friendly site because everyone who uploads is participating in friendly competition. Looking at the MARP Loads page there's a recent 118980 score for Mappy which makes 10th place. Ok this might be a "junk" score for some but I certainly couldn't get this score without some effort. By having a cutoff point you're blocking some people's fun.

Buttermaker, what about my Olympic decathlon analogy. They have a leaderboard where all the participant get points, there are no athletes who get "junk" times, throw "junk" distances and lift "junk" weights etc. and that's FACT. Only at the end of the competion do the top 3 get medals.

The MARP leaderboard is very similar, everyone scores points on the games whatever position it is and then a leaderboard is compiled from the totals and that's LOGIC.

I totally agree with you. It seems some people wants to take the fun out of MARP, and turn it into a place for the Elite players. And the sad thing about it is, some of these people claim they have no interest in the Leaderboard at all.

Just watch what you guys believe is good recordings, and is worthy of you confirming it, and let the rest of us have some fun.

[LN2]

Given I have discussed this previously in pre-poll threads and the vote for the 2nd step was so close(I didn't get to vote either....likely wouldn't have anyway cuz was torn between both):


I think the cut-off at 7th place is a good compromise between the 2 choices in step 2.

[kfx]

I think the cut-off at 7th place is a good compromise between the 2 choices in step 2.

Agree.

[Buttermaker]

As I've said I've deleted some scores. And I'm very happy to have deleted some scores where I've spend many and many tries for made them because they give me only the 8th place and 20 points.

You're missing the point Francois. If it took you a lot of tries and you made an effort those replays are perfectly fine. Nobody wants to turn MARP into a world record only site. Like it says in the rules:

l) Submit only games that you feel are worthy of the notice of other MARPers, owing either to personal effort, or display of skill.

It's very easy to see when somebody made no effort to learn/understand/play the game properly. You don't have to finish a game on one credit to be in accordance with that rule. Just make an effort and don't submit inps after a few tries.

- LB points said nothing, those who fear of these little points owned by hundred players are those who really take care of their place on the LB

Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say there.

- Give only few points for few players will grant only one thing for marp : 1337

No:

The leaderboard is not the essence of MARP.

You can still upload whatever you want. Nothing will stop you.

- All scores on marp are valluable, because they're all our best records, even if they grant only 1 point, even if they grant 0 point.

Now that is just wrong. There are countless recordings which do not display any skill and also are no personal effort. They got uploaded solely for leaderboard points and that is the problem.

- I thanks the one (I don't know who) who begin this battle against ABC's Player...

ABC uploader really describes people who mass upload for leaderboard points only without display of skill or personal effort. Don't feel offended if you upload alphabetically but make a real effort.

against those who haven't the skill for reach top 3 on games... against those who play for fun and not for LB points. Because marp will become a 1337 mame site

You're contradicting yourself. If you don't play for leaderboard points what is your problem? Just continue to play and upload like you always have.

- 25 marpers have vote and take decision for hundred marpers. For me, its something very strange.

Voting is stupid anyway. Arguments should be the deciding factor.

you just argued this point yourself in another thread.

these great fire truck recordings probably wouldn't have been submited with a top 5 only leader board =)

Hehe, I knew that somebody would say that.

Fhqwhgads doesn't look like he cares about the leaderboard though.

would these players submit these extremely entertaining inps if they get zero points?

Yes, because they don't care about the leaderboard and submitted them because they wanted to put them on display for everybody to see. Everybody who realizes that the leaderboard is not the essence of MARP will not be affected by any leaderboard system changes.

The only thing I can said, is your 3rd cut-off is in marp LB yet. Why don't you let the things as before ? One ranking who use the green scoring in the LB and one ranking with our good old system. And everybody will be happy.

Because that would not change the following:

My main concern however, is that it gives points (however few) to so many contestants that there is an incentive for members to upload recordings of little or no interest to the community, just for the sake of leaderboard points. (In violation of MARP Rule #2)

l) Submit only games that you feel are worthy of the notice of other MARPers, owing either to personal effort, or display of skill.

Why cutoff at 3? Make the cutoff at 1!

Hehe, i knew that somebody would say that.

I want the leaderboard to be removed (won't happen, no need to discuss that anymore) or the scoring system to be changed.

So a harsh cut-off is needed. The number 3 immediately comes to mind because it's like a podium. Anything below 3 is too ridiculous because

Ridiculous in what way?

No. Just think about the 100 (yes, 100) Atari clones added in a recent version. There are way too many games/clones in MAME for MARP to have 7 decent scores even for a fraction of all games. I also want those inps to not even get uploaded in the first place.

Why limit it to 3? That makes the leaderboard out of bounds to the majority of players on each game.

Wrong.

There are 4877 games in MAME .81u4 and more are getting added each week.

Seriously, MARP is (was) a friendly site because everyone who uploads is participating in friendly competition.

Nothing has changed and nothing will change in that regard.

Looking at the MARP Loads page there's a recent 118980 score for Mappy which makes 10th place. Ok this might be a "junk" score for some but I certainly couldn't get this score without some effort.

If it required an effort it is more than welcome.

By having a cutoff point you're blocking some people's fun.

All we want is that people don't break rule 2 l). A cut-off point will only affect players who submit for leaderboard points only. They won't be able to submit replays after one try anymore. They will have to make an effort. People who've always made an effort will not be affected by any changes. They know that the leaderboard is not the essence of MARP.

Buttermaker, what about my Olympic decathlon analogy. They have a leaderboard where all the participant get points, there are no athletes who get "junk" times, throw "junk" distances and lift "junk" weights etc. and that's FACT.

Yes, it's a fact. But one that does the point you're trying to make no good.

To be able to participate in an Olympic event you have to be one of THE best and always make an effort and practise as hard as possible. On MARP though we have people who upload for leaderboard points only without making an effort.

There are no athletes who get "junk" times/distances or lift "junk" weights because they are THE BEST and always give their best effort. They have worked long and hard to get there. On MARP though we have people who upload for leaderboard points only without making an effort.

Only at the end of the competion do the top 3 get medals.

That is a competition with a fixed number of disciplines. If you're not good enough you won't get anything at the end. Only quality counts.

The MARP leaderboard is very similar, everyone scores points on the games whatever position it is and then a leaderboard is compiled from the totals and that's LOGIC.

Your logic is flawed. The MARP leaderboard is a continuous competition with a huge number of games which is always on the rise. That's why quantity reigns over quality. And that's the problem which is being addressed here.

Yes, too small a sample.

If people would come here and discuss we'd have a better sample but if they can't be bothered to or don't have anything to add there's nothing we can do.

Yes ! Vote for a highly elitist site !

This has nothing to do with elitism.

Yes, it's exactly why I'd post some little inp.

And you can continue to do so no matter what.

Excellent analogy Gaz, I totally agreed with you.

Very bad analogy, sorry. (:

It seems some people wants to take the fun out of MARP,

Nobody is trying to take the fun out of MARP. Just continue to upload like you always have.

and turn it into a place for the Elite players.

What does this have to do with elitism?

And the sad thing about it is, some of these people claim they have no interest in the Leaderboard at all.

But they have an interest in making a site they love better.

let the rest of us have some fun.

Why would a leaderboard system change take even one bit of fun away from you?

And with all of this being said the arguments for cut-off points other than 3rd place still stand at zero.

[BBH]

good lord that took a long time to read.... who do you think you are, Butter? Did the spirit of LN2 enter your body?

anyway I've said almost nothing in all these leaderboard threads, mainly because I just stopped caring. There is no perfect system for actually judging who the best player is. If I had to choose though, top 3 is the way to go if only for the reason that MAME emulates so many games now. I mean, having a lot of games to choose from is obviously a good thing and all. But it dilutes the competition on individual games a little. Not very good at a certain game, who cares, you can easily find another. When there were fewer games emulated and MARP used the old 10-3-1 system, you had no choice but to get better on the existing games. Hopefully reducing the cutoff to top 3 would enhance the effort that people put into games and improve competition, but I can also see this working in reverse when somebody plays a game, figures it would take too much work to get up to the level of the top players, and so... they move on to another game.

shrug.

[LordGaz]

What's wrong with submitting for leaderboard points only anyway? I've always considered registering a new alias on MARP to see how high I can climb on the leaderboard by submitting hundreds of inps. I won't be able to do that if there's cutoff. You spoil my fun . Gaz.

[Weehawk]

What's wrong with submitting for leaderboard points only anyway? I've always considered registering a new alias on MARP to see how high I can climb on the leaderboard by submitting hundreds of inps. I won't be able to do that if there's cutoff. You spoil my fun . Gaz.

Like that weak one you just submitted for Joust?

Think doubling it is possible?

Look forward to watching it in a few hours.

[Francois Daniel]

It's very easy to see when somebody made no effort to learn/understand/play the game properly. You don't have to finish a game on one credit to be in accordance with that rule. Just make an effort and don't submit inps after a few tries.

I dont agree, its not so easy too see that. Where are the limit between an inp made with effort and one made without effort ? My scores made on GTG golf (trackball) were made without any effort with my first try. And I'm first on one of them. And I'm sure if you see it, you'll said ' its a good try '.

And if the other ABC palyer's are not good players but made their inps in the 5th, 10th or 50th try. Nobody can know except the one who made it.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say there.

I mean, I dont understand what you have against ABC players. Why they embarass you exactly ? And don't tell me the rule 2, you can't prove they break this rule.

You can still upload whatever you want. Nothing will stop you.

So ABC players are free to upload their inp, even if they give them 100, 50, 2, 1 or 0 LB points.

Now that is just wrong. There are countless recordings which do not display any skill and also are no personal effort. They got uploaded solely for leaderboard points and that is the problem.

Its just a supposition. You cant prove it. Maybe, they're happy to have these little points. Why would you forbid their happyness ?

Voting is stupid anyway. Arguments should be the deciding factor.

No, we're civilised here. If we must make a major change in LB, we must vote for. And annonce the poll in the home page of marp because many marpers dont read the board everydays. If we make the change without poll, or without annonce it, many marpers will gone.

Yes, because they don't care about the leaderboard and submitted them because they wanted to put them on display for everybody to see. .

You know what ? You speak of me And I'm not post it for these reasons So dont speak for someone you don't know well

Because that would not change the following:

And where is the problem ?

.
If it required an effort it is more than welcome.

So, explain to me how you can see one record is made with effort and one is made without effort. Where is the limit ?

.A cut-off point will only affect players who submit for leaderboard points only. They won't be able to submit replays after one try anymore. They will have to make an effort. People who've always made an effort will not be affected by any changes. They know that the leaderboard is not the essence of MARP..

Maybe but you missed a point. When Mickey and me were 55th and 54th, we contest each other. We send inp made with effort for gain some LB points and be the first of two friends. Its for fun only. And I'm sure many friends make the same at 150th place or 480th place. Why you want to break this fun ? Maybe you don't want that, but grant points only for 3 marpers will break this fun.

.participant get points, there are no athletes who get "junk" times, throw "junk" distances and lift "junk" weights etc. and that's FACT.

You're wrong, nobody is perfect, even the world Decathlon champion

.To be able to participate in an Olympic event you have to be one of THE best and always make an effort and practise as hard as possible. On MARP though we have people who upload for leaderboard points only without making an effort..

You're wrong again. Marp isn't Olympiad. Marp Olympiad is like Olympic games. You can make Olympic Decathlon without go to Athen. It's the name of the trial, as 100m dash or High Jump. Gaz' analogy still good.

.There are no athletes who get "junk" times/distances or lift "junk" weights because they are THE BEST and always give their best effort. They have worked long and hard to get there. On MARP though we have people who upload for leaderboard points only without making an effort...

Yes but athlets often failed in their trial even if they made them by effort. And their tries are counted. It must be the same for marp.

.Your logic is flawed. The MARP leaderboard is a continuous competition with a huge number of games which is always on the rise. That's why quantity reigns over quality. And that's the problem which is being addressed here.

So, you prefer quality than quantity... So, you prefer best players than hundred of them... So you prefer ELITE players than modest ones.

.If people would come here and discuss we'd have a better sample but if they can't be bothered to or don't have anything to add there's nothing we can do..

And its a reason to take decision without them ? to take decision without they even know they're a decision to take ? A major decision taken without any advertisement on the homepage of marp ?

.
This has nothing to do with elitism.

Maybe but the result will make marp become elitist. If you don't see why, I can make nothing for you.

.
Nobody is trying to take the fun out of MARP. Just continue to upload like you always have.

Maybe but the result will take off some fun on marp. If you don't see why, I can make nothing for you.

.And with all of this being said the arguments for cut-off points other than 3rd place still stand at zero.

It's your seeing of all this. But we're many who don't agreed with you. So, please, don't take alone a decision for all marpers. Make poll.

Francois

[Buttermaker]

I dont agree, its not so easy too see that.

I'm not a talented video game player. If i can beat the score easily it wasn't made with effort.

Where are the limit between an inp made with effort and one made without effort ? My scores made on GTG golf (trackball) were made without any effort with my first try. And I'm first on one of them. And I'm sure if you see it, you'll said ' its a good try '.

If it's a fine replay it doesn't matter whether it required effort or not. Remember: Display of skill or personal effort.

And if the other ABC palyer's are not good players but made their inps in the 5th, 10th or 50th try. Nobody can know except the one who made it.

If you're not talented you must practise. It's as simple as that. And like I said: If I can beat a score easily it wasn't made with effort because I can only produce decent scores after a lot of playing time.

I mean, I dont understand what you have against ABC players. Why they embarass you exactly ? And don't tell me the rule 2, you can't prove they break this rule.

Now it's getting repetitive. I've explained my views clearly already and it's gotten to a point where I can just get quotes from old posts to explain that.

So ABC players are free to upload their inp, even if they give them 100, 50, 2, 1 or 0 LB points.

Exactly. Nothing will ever change in that regard. They just can't get free leaderboard points as easily anymore in case of a cut-off after 3rd place. Plenty of free leaderboard points will still be up for grabs though.

Its just a supposition. You cant prove it. Maybe, they're happy to have these little points. Why would you forbid their happyness ?

I'm not forbidding anybody to be happy. If you have a replay to upload, upload it.

No, we're civilised here. If we must make a major change in LB, we must vote for.

With the small community that MARP is the best decision can be reached with a discussion.

If we make the change without poll, or without annonce it, many marpers will gone.

If somebody leaves MARP because he can't get enough free leaderboard points anymore I say: Good riddance.

You know what ? You speak of me And I'm not post it for these reasons So dont speak for someone you don't know well

Hehe, ok, then tell us why you uploaded it.

And where is the problem ?

Read and understand and you'll see.

So, explain to me how you can see one record is made with effort and one is made without effort. Where is the limit ?

If I can beat it easily it required no effort.

Maybe but you missed a point. When Mickey and me were 55th and 54th, we contest each other. We send inp made with effort for gain some LB points and be the first of two friends. Its for fun only.

Do you and Mickey play the same games only? If not it's not an accurate comparison anyway.

You two will still have your fun in case of a cut-off after 3.

And I'm sure many friends make the same at 150th place or 480th place. Why you want to break this fun ? Maybe you don't want that, but grant points only for 3 marpers will break this fun.

No, it won't. There just won't be as many free leaderboard points anymore. But since there are over 4700 games (growing with each release) there will still be free leaderboard points. If free points get taken away from you because of a system change you'll have to make an effort to get them back.

.participant get points, there are no athletes who get "junk" times, throw "junk" distances and lift "junk" weights etc. and that's FACT.

You're wrong, nobody is perfect, even the world Decathlon champion

You quoted Gaz there, not me.

You're wrong again. Marp isn't Olympiad.

Uhm, I didn't say it was so what are you talking about?

Marp Olympiad is like Olympic games.

In case you're talking about the tournament called MARP Olympiad: This is different from the Regulation Play Leaderboard. In a tournament there's a fixed number of events. Quantity won't help you there. And as Weehawk said:

Baron Pierre de Coubertin (the founder of the modern Olympic Games) answered this question when he said:

The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well.

Those that don't understand this are to be pitied.

You can make Olympic Decathlon without go to Athen.

Sure, but Gaz was talking about the Olympic decathlon where all athletes are awesome. And as Weehawk said:

George Mallory, on the subject of attempting to reach the peak of Mount Everest said:

The first question which you will ask and which I must try to answer is this, 'What is the use of climbing Mount Everest ?' and my answer must at once be, 'It is no use'. There is not the slightest prospect of any gain whatsoever. Oh, we may learn a little about the behavior of the human body at high altitudes, and possibly medical men may turn our observation to some account for the purposes of aviation. But otherwise nothing will come of it. We shall not bring back a single bit of gold or silver, not a gem, nor any coal or iron. We shall not find a single foot of earth that can be planted with crops to raise food. It's no use. So, if you cannot understand that there is something in man which responds to the challenge of this mountain and goes out to meet it, that the struggle is the struggle of life itself upward and forever upward, then you won't see why we go. What we get from this adventure is just sheer joy. And joy is, after all, the end of life. We do not live to eat and make money. We eat and make money to be able to enjoy life. That is what life means and what life is for.

Mallory gave his life in the attempt, for which he would not have gotten a single leaderboard point.

Gaz' analogy still good.

No. In an event like a decathlon quantity and effortless play won't get you anywhere. But if you put in an effort and still lose it won't matter because: Read the Weehawk quotes and understand them.

Yes but athlets often failed in their trial even if they made them by effort. And their tries are counted. It must be the same for marp.

It is the same at MARP. Put in an effort and you'll get respect. Just like the athlete who gave all he had but came up short.

So, you prefer quality than quantity...

Quality = skill and/or effort. And effort will lead to skill anyway.

So, you prefer best players than hundred of them...

If hundred players put in an effort you have hundred skilled players.

So you prefer ELITE players than modest ones.

Modest? Kind of a strange word to describe one's gaming ability. The only players I don't like are the ones who want free leaderboard points without effort and nothing else.

And its a reason to take decision without them ? to take decision without they even know they're a decision to take ? A major decision taken without any advertisement on the homepage of marp ?

If you think more people will come here if there's an announcement in the MARP news talk to mahlemiut/QRS/Zwaxy/etc. and ask them to make a news post.

Maybe but the result will make marp become elitist. If you don't see why, I can make nothing for you.

Read the Weehawk quotes one more time.

Maybe but the result will take off some fun on marp. If you don't see why, I can make nothing for you.

Read the Weehawk quotes one more time.

It's your seeing of all this. But we're many who don't agreed with you.

I just wish somebody would make sound arguments.

So, please, don't take alone a decision for all marpers.

Argumentation is in my favour right now.

Make poll.

A poll doesn't guarantee that the best choice will be made. A discussion does.