dskys T&F recordings

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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The TJT
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dskys T&F recordings

Post by The TJT » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:00 am

Sorry to say this, but Dskys Track&Field recordings show use of autofire. Could you please remove those that were achieved using it.

I have talked with Chad about this. We have this analinp.exe utility that analyzes inps for slowdown/autofire.
Also -inpview 1 option shows putton pushing pattern, which is not in accordance with running method dskys described earlier.

And I believe this TF clone uses RLH(bit 24):
http://marp.retrogames.com/inp/f/3/1/ds ... _win66.zip

Also if use of illegal methods applies to Hypersport inps, please remove those.

Thank you.
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Post by dskys » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:17 am

LOL

1. I didn't use autofire. I thought it was disabled in WM anyway? If not, is there a build where it is disabled?

2. Slowdown. I don't believe the latest inp slows anywhere. I can't watch right now as am at work. The previous inp 947xx slowed on high jump, but on heights where A. I wouldn't need to slow to clear and B. at pointless times where no advantage is to be gained. This is a limitation of my laptop where IF i have a continually-updating webpage open I get occasional slowdown. Like i said in the latest inp I don't believe that there is slowdown.

3. Button presses? What do you mean?

4. RLH in the hyprolym recording? Don't think so...

5. Tommi, if you look at the recording, and indeed the button presses on the two running events you'll see that they are actually quite slow. I've had low 7.6 with endspeed of 1201. If I was using autofire wouldnt this e a lot higher with much faster presses? Explain pls if I've misunderstood.

Adrian
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Post by dskys » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:43 am

Can I also say, that on the surface Tommi it looks like you're getting paranoid that your record might go...

I mean come on! Surely you would have checked for these before - ie on the inps with VERY fast times?? Why now? Why not on an inp where (and you said it yourself) I got 7.59?! Are you seriously telling me that you DIDN'T check that one? Are you saying that that didn't arouse suspision yet this one does?

If you have slowdown, I explained why it may be there. You will not get any on the HS inps as they were recorded on my PC which is a much higher spec.

From your post it would seem that analinp doesn't differentiate between the two. Is this the case?

All I can say is, why would I strive so hard for so long at just two games to jeapordise my records by cheating? Look at everything I've uploaded, the scores have progressed because I've put time in playing and refining technique, that's all.

Cheers

Adrian
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Post by dskys » Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:06 am

Tommi:

This is what u put:

Watched dskys's latest trackfld recording, it playsback to advertised score. 7,59 at 100m...with 1200cm/sec speed at 50meter mark! That run looks absolutely perfect up to 60 meters.

...... Surely you checked??!?!?
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Post by Chad » Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:31 am

dskys wrote:LOL

1. I didn't use autofire. I thought it was disabled in WM anyway? If not, is there a build where it is disabled?
where did you get that idea? autofire can't be disabled, you know it's attributed to an external device, none the less most of your most recent recordings are being flaged as clear autofire presses, so it appears you are "progressing". Besides the analysis, it's not just paranoia, since the fact you won't submit movies of your track and field recordings for tg. I'm sure you have a good reason for that. But, if you make a movie or submit more progressive recordings that don't analyze to autofire, we can get proved wrong.
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Post by dskys » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:27 pm

Well would you like to explain what defines autofire? As you are no doubt aware, a Sony PS2 Dual-Shock does not have autofire.

I will submit a video recording via mobile phone in a few days provided you can let me know what is classed as autofire.

Assuming buttons are number 1 and 2 for run, i would expect that my inp looks like one of the following, depending on event:

Running 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2 etc, prolly not as neat as that but hey.

Long J, Jav 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2 etc

Hammer, early recording, as running, all the way to 1500cm/s. Recent recordings, running til end of second rotation then slow alternate taps while in the air.

High Jump, continuous running, prolly nowhere near as fast as 100/110 speeds.

Now see, if autofire is just simply id'd by rhythmic presses this is fatuos. If I use two fingers, prodding the buttons I'd be very rhythmic, always alternate and quite fast. But obv not using autofire??!!

If it's down to sheer button speed, as stated above, I can and have run VERY quick times without even breaking a sweat, let alone and cm/s speed records... But if it is speed, I won't run as fast LOL.

The description of how I run in the sprints is accurate as per what I wrote to Tommi a while ago. I figure that I hit button 2 twice as often as button 1 when doing it like this per se.

I have never said I wouldn't submit a vid to TG, where did you get that from? I don't see the point recording to VHS for 8 hours when I know I can't get the score required to compete for that bounty. I honestly have no way to record aside from borrowing a mobile, which is why Tommi has not seen his recording. Although, if autofire is generic to the controller used then what good is a video going to be?!?!

I am genuinely interested as to what constitutes autofire, and although it is easy to say I honestly haven't used it. Out of curiosity, does it appear to be used throughout or is is just the sprints where I use a different technique? If it is that, I can easily go to running like I do on the other events, which will cost me a few hundredths on a good run. Not much to worry about.

Want to sort this out. I've spent a LONG time on those two titles (tho you haven't said if HS displays similar tendencies. I doubt it will as I used a PC Keyboard on that for the running. ) and a lot of effort has gone into technique, particularly on the sprints, shaving fractions of a second off my times.

At the end of the day I only have to be honest with me, and if that isn't good enough for my peers there's not really a lot I can do. Hopefully a vid will sort this out.

Looking forward to your input (no pun!)

Adrian
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Post by Chad » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:52 pm

you can boast about how fast your button presses are, i'm sure you're quite adequate, no where near the speed of some other humans that have been analyzed, and some autofires are slower than your inps are. But, it comes down to varience of press durations. Your press signatures follow up with many other autofire signatures. Could that be wrong? sure. Could you be wrong in adamantly denying you didn't use autofire? yes, as well. Arguing isn't going to prove anything. You've been flagged and you're recordings are subject to the regulation coordinator's disgression.

EDIT* Oh about quoting that you're recordings were said to be perfect isn't good evidence. Several (money Exchange 64, dodonpachi,...) recordings are stated as brillant (even by myself) before they were admitedly shown to have been forged. need something more tangible. And i'm sorry it has to come to this, you have gotten the short end of the stick on a couple of fronts, the nvram thing too :(, but i had to report what i see.
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Post by dskys » Tue Feb 22, 2005 2:26 pm

Chad wrote:you can boast about how fast your button presses are, i'm sure you're quite adequate, no where near the speed of some other humans that have been analyzed, and some autofires are slower than your inps are. But, it comes down to varience of press durations. Your press signatures follow up with many other autofire signatures. Could that be wrong? sure. Could you be wrong in adamantly denying you didn't use autofire? yes, as well. Arguing isn't going to prove anything. You've been flagged and you're recordings are subject to the regulation coordinator's disgression.

EDIT* Oh about quoting that you're recordings were said to be perfect isn't good evidence. Several (money Exchange 64, dodonpachi,...) recordings are stated as brillant (even by myself) before they were admitedly shown to have been forged. need something more tangible. And i'm sorry it has to come to this, you have gotten the short end of the stick on a couple of fronts, the nvram thing too :(, but i had to report what i see.
All well and good. What is variance of press durations? Is it what you have written - ie the time the button is held EACH press or do you mean the time between presses?

I have an idea, that probably won't prove a thing.... Does the name entry at the start show autofire tendencies? Thing is, I do almost exactly what I do when running, pretty much and a bit slower cos it's not a race :P, except it's just one button. So are the press durations showing autofire here, or is it when alternate buttons are being pressed.

I'm sure you appreciate my desire to sort this out, after all I've spent 20 years playing these two games lol.

I can see it from your pov - but cmon, if I had taken the time to work out the optimum technique vs speed and then decided to use AF anyway (when the optimum speed is doable with TWO FINGERS ONLY) why would I bother?

On the subject of a video recording, wha time is acceptable? I hit circa 7.8 every run, sometimes 7.7, rarely 7.6 and three times 7.5. out of 1000 games. Is 7.8 /.7 ok? Obviously you want the accompanying inp as well? I assume it will be ok to use multiple credits per recording?

Adrian

**edit**

Again, another thought: I tend to run slower for the first part of the race. I definately USED to do this on earlier recodings. There was an attachment in the track and field thread on General I think with a 7.59 (might have been .54) 100m inp by me where I startedslow then worked up. Would it not be reasonable to assume that if i used AF (assuming I don't really use a ps2 pad) the speed would be constant, the press duration the same throughout..? Please could someone check THAT recording with analinp too. My point being that if this shows up clear, I used the same controller, and will go back to that running style, although my times are less consistent... If I mess it up I get 8+ lol, but whatever.

Attachment details, how I run :)

R = Right Hand Only, Right-hand button
L = Left Hand Only, Left-hand button
B = Both buttons, both hands.

Does it show AF? This is EXACTLY how I run in the sprints. Would like to know.

Cheers
Attachments
trackfld.zip
Autofire?
(1.82 KiB) Downloaded 274 times
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Post by The TJT » Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:13 pm

dskys wrote:Can I also say, that on the surface Tommi it looks like you're getting paranoid that your record might go...
I don't want to abuse regulation coordinatorship.
I thought about this REALLY long and hard. Finally I came to conclusion that even if I wouldn't have marp first at T&F, I would be for zeroing your scores based on my observations +analinp.
-----

You quoted only part of my message:
TJT wrote:Watched dskys's latest trackfld recording, it playsback to advertised score. 7,59 at 100m...with 1200cm/sec speed at 50meter mark! That run looks absolutely perfect up to 60 meters.
I leave confirming to Chad though. Still wanting to see dskys make R Mruczek bounties type video.
Don't take it personally Adrian, I would want to see same for anyone who gets such speeds with joypad!
...So you see, at that time, I was infact doubting your speeds..."I leave confirming to Chad" (who is author of analinp).
For the record, at that time I didn't have analinp myself. Chad emailed me some time ago, and said that several of your T&F recordings are flagged as autofire.
----------------------

I recall you saying you would make video at new year...but:
http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3950
So what are we supposed to think about that then...
-------

About your button presses: At the inp I watched your 100m looked more like 11 22 11 22 11 22 (inpview -1)frame by frame...My opinion is that using method you said presses should look different. Also it is very hard to believe that you get so fast speeds.
dskys wrote:When running 'fast' I don't really move my right hand just keep it tense on the button with the joypad on the floor (dead arcade like lol) and my left hand vibrates creating like a see-saw motion (so I get free taps from my right thumb/finger) - makes 110h easy to do cos the pad's so small!!
I have VERY rhythmic and fast pushes when using 6finger technique. With joystick very fast too. None of my inps show marks of autofire, analinp-wise.
--------
Dskys 2 recordings use of RLH. I tested this using RLH myself with same versions you played. Both occasions bit 24 appeared with -analinp -a -i -v. You pressed RLH repeatedly, that does not help much...so looks like you were using it by mistake, you were too busy mapping half of the keyboard to button3...
http://marp.retrogames.com/index.cgi?mo ... er_game=20

So, my view is that we delete ALL dskys T&F recordings for autofire, and those 2 above mentioned that use RLH.
Sony PS2 Dual-Shock
Well, if we see a clear Mruckzek type video +inp with that device, and it doesn't have possibility for autofire or macros...Then I think you have proven us wrong. I hope we are wrong.

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Post by dskys » Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:20 pm

Dskys 2 recordings use of RLH. I tested this using RLH myself with same versions you played. Both occasions bit 24 appeared with -analinp -a -i -v. You pressed RLH repeatedly, that does not help much...so looks like you were using it by mistake, you were too busy mapping half of the keyboard to button3...
http://marp.retrogames.com/index.cgi?mo ... er_game=20

Yeah, I know what that is I think.. Some versions of GUI WM seem to map lleft shift as RLH automatically. This goes up to very recent versions but I dont know which offhand. That will be what youre seeing.

Please watch the attached name entry and let me know if that's af too.

As for deleting all my recordings, theres not much I can do. I will continue to upload new ones as I don't use AF. If they show up as that then I'll adpat and refine my technique so that it doesn't do that.

Ahh. I knew that post from TG would come up. Of course you can read it different ways. The way I meant it was why whether we had to provide a vid to beat a non-taped score. Yours. A recording via mobile will go up in a few days, when I either buy a vid fone or find someone with one.

Cheers

Adrian
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Post by dskys » Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:23 pm

Also, i move both hands now. I'm surprised at the 112211221122 tbh. I looked using inpview and it doesn't look like that to me but hey. Also the name entry with both buttons is definately not 1122112211221122....

See-saw technique is tiring and slower more deliberate running yields the same speeds.

See-sawing was technique on inps up to 93is-k. I use both hands now independently. Higher scores are not cos of greater speeds, just better consistency thru all 6 events.
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Post by The TJT » Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:58 pm

dskys wrote: Please watch the attached name entry and let me know if that's af too.

As for deleting all my recordings, theres not much I can do. I will continue to upload new ones as I don't use AF. If they show up as that then I'll adpat and refine my technique so that it doesn't do that.
Well, I don't think that sounds very fruitful. If we tell which inp shows AF and which not, then it would be too easy to adapt. Think about it, hehe...
Also, not sure if it would be a good idea to tell how analinp works exactly.
Ahh. I knew that post from TG would come up. Of course you can read it different ways. The way I meant it was why whether we had to provide a vid to beat a non-taped score. Yours.
Well, my usual procedure has not been videotaping all my inps. ;)
I have send Chad a video of myself running 9,74 at 110m at arcade cabinet in Helsinki, using 3 arcade buttons and 2 hands. Too bad video quality/lighting was quite poor(gameon exhibition). Also 15 frames/sec is not enough if I push buttons about 20+ times/sec.
Might be making better one soonish...Maybe some Marble rolling too. Too bad I'm off form at both!
I did send that video to Chad because show off. I think I kinda proved myself when I ran 7,74 at 100m using only one button at Funspot 2000, NH,USA...
A recording via mobile will go up in a few days, when I either buy a vid fone or find someone with one.
Nuff talking...

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Post by dskys » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:15 pm

hehe yeah, the first one reads bad :P

I don't make a habit of taping my inps either, I'm sure you let me off ;)

Here's what I propose (bout to watch Arse get beat, so have to be quick :P)

1. A FULL VHS recording encoded and uploaded showing

1b. A fresh install of any WM you choose

1c. Editing of ini file, firstly to make sure cheats are disabled, secondly to point to my roms

1d. Editing of Controller to allow me to use the pad, def game options to make sure cheats are a no-no.

1e. Showing folder struture to see that no screenshots, inps or nv files exist

2. I will start the new install of MAME and begin a non-recorded (inp) game. Define keys.

3. Press ALT-F + R, then enter to record as many inps as it takes to get a decent run, sub 7.7 seconds, with my hands in full view throughout as well as the screen. Note, I'll do the ALT F R slowly, but always record to trackfld.inp so at the end that's the only one there will be. I'll sign in as DSK as always.

4. End my game at a point I choose. I assume that a 7.7 run will be good enough, advise if not. If I cock up a subsequent event after a good run, I end the game, what's the point playing on?

5. If it shows as AF, I guess you need to re-write/rethink analinp :)

Is that strict enough???

I get paid at the end of the month, inp/vid will be up first, maybe second week of March.

Watch this space.

Cheers

Adi

**edited I removed some pedantic points from the above. Like buying a new pad. Heh.
Last edited by dskys on Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by The TJT » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:24 pm

HUH!

...I need a smoke [-o<

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Post by dskys » Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:24 pm

Sorry for lack of updates - Got a PM which made me get off my arse.

I will sort a recording. Unfortunately, from a mobile is pretty shitty and I can't get anything better for a while. I don't know how long a while is. I'm not made of money and tbh this is a pretty low priority in the great scheme of things atm.

As I said in my reply to the PM (setting me up for a fall) my hyperspt score stands. If theres occasional RLH cos of left shift, theres not much I can do, but i guess that's life. (left shift is mapped to rlh by default in some builds of mame - the space bar his HUGE, left CTRL isn't - anyway I've explained many times my setup for running (at HS) which is joypad to dive (so three keys there) plus keyboard)

Ultimately, there'll be a decent quality vid and I appreciate the 'pending' status comment on the hi-score tables.

Cheers

Adrian
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