oh better than i thought, diff nvram dir! but still too much "more" work for the average user. I'd still much prefer the user entered the nvram in the zip, so we wouldn't have to put yet ANOTHER link to a file on marp entry to split nvrams. Right now there are links to all the things you need to playback the recording, zip+mame.exe.
Right now I don't have to do anything but double click and the script knows which game+version. I already have enough script options force nvram and no sound things, it could be done but i wouldn't want to add an option to use nvram for certain games for which -split name. So i'm still against it :)
when mame has F3 recorded in the inp then it should be allowed with out an nvram file. (actually this seems like it's easy enough to patch, there's 60 bytes in the frame now there's gotta be room for another function key). unless they are planing on truncating the inp when F3 is pressed, but even they shoudl allow both ways: reset inp and input=reset.
Street Fighter Alpha 3 Survival Mode split
Moderator: BBH
The whole reason NVRAM is abolished around here is because it plays havoc with input files, so it's simpler to just delete it so everyone is on the same settings.
I do think it's worth making an exception for SFA3. Buttermaker's solution works great, because then you have a write-protected NVRAM file so everyone's will be the same. And putting the .nv file in a separate directory is definitely the best way to do things for those of us who delete the \nvram subdirectory and replace with an empty file of the same name. Is it more effort for the average user? Yes, of course it is. But if the instructions on how exactly to record and playback are put in the Special Rules, what's the big deal? I don't think it's THAT complicated for people here to figure out.
I do think it's worth making an exception for SFA3. Buttermaker's solution works great, because then you have a write-protected NVRAM file so everyone's will be the same. And putting the .nv file in a separate directory is definitely the best way to do things for those of us who delete the \nvram subdirectory and replace with an empty file of the same name. Is it more effort for the average user? Yes, of course it is. But if the instructions on how exactly to record and playback are put in the Special Rules, what's the big deal? I don't think it's THAT complicated for people here to figure out.
You could use that logic for allowing nvram for any games.BBH wrote:Is it more effort for the average user? Yes, of course it is. But if the instructions on how exactly to record and playback are put in the Special Rules, what's the big deal? I don't think it's THAT complicated for people here to figure out.
However, it's not allowed. Plus, you then add one more element to having problems with playback. If it ends up being allowed, the nvram file to be used must be included in the zip submission.
Is MARP going to have a special nvram file as bm provided for each and every version of mame? What about xmame? macmame? They all would need their own special nvram files also. oops, we have it for 0.72, but need new nvram for 0.73, and 0.74, etc. Soon you have 20+ nvram file versions just for 1 game.
It becomes a pain.
Not really, because using NVRAM on most any other game is not going to open entirely new modes of play, as is the case with Survival mode on SFA3. There's no reason to need to use it on over 99% of the games supported by MAME.LN2 wrote: You could use that logic for allowing nvram for any games.
http://marp.retrogames.com/rules/However, it's not allowed. Plus, you then add one more element to having problems with playback. If it ends up being allowed, the nvram file to be used must be included in the zip submission.
2.
d) NVRAM, including the default NVRAM, is prohibited, with the exception of extraordinary circumstances.
If this doesn't count as extraordinary circumstances (unlocking an entirely different mode of play for which other games have already been split), I'd like you to tell me what is.
...are you arguing just for the sake of arguing or something?Is MARP going to have a special nvram file as bm provided for each and every version of mame? What about xmame? macmame? They all would need their own special nvram files also. oops, we have it for 0.72, but need new nvram for 0.73, and 0.74, etc. Soon you have 20+ nvram file versions just for 1 game.
It doesn't change from version to version.
you guys are also forgetting the chance that during recording it's possible the nvrams could change in your sfa3 directory and then the next recording will be unplaybackable with the default sfa3-sm.nv... it's just a bad idea to let nv's back in in any circumstance, even if it allows a split that "should" be there.
-skito
um, that's the whole reason for making the actual .nv file write-protected...Chad wrote:you guys are also forgetting the chance that during recording it's possible the nvrams could change in your sfa3 directory and then the next recording will be unplaybackable with the default sfa3-sm.nv... it's just a bad idea to let nv's back in in any circumstance, even if it allows a split that "should" be there.
ok, so now the users have to also realize this and make sure the file is locked...and if it isn't locked know how to properly lock it.
This varies versus OS used....vs platform used etc.
Unzipping that archive with a windows locked file in linux or MacOS X etc. won't result in a locked file. The user will have to realize they need to lock it.
This might even be true for dos as well...but not sure there.
It's a shame in a way that you won't get to play that other game mode(s). However, it seems from the above info this would be totally possible without using any nvram file if F3 was tracked in inp recordings.
IMHO, F3 should be tracked. Perhaps this can be added in a near future version of mame.
Also...to open another aspect to this...can the mode(s) you get and score etc. actually vary versus the nvram values besides just the availability of it? I could see some player knowing some other trick or code(s) where he makes his own nvram file for use for their recordings....gaining an advantage over those using the suggested nvram file.
Are you going to run chksums on each upload for the game to verify the correct nvram file was used? How do you handle that for variants that maybe have a different nvram file format then?
If you already know none of that is a factor...fine. This needed to be discussed before the vote. The vote was pretty much complete before all of these aspects were discussed. It's clear most think even in the case of allowing special modes nvram shouldn't be allowed...without even considering the other troubles users might run into trying to do that.
Given the cases pointed out above instead of voting no for this I likely would have abstained. It would also require seeing a sample inp showing the use of the nvram and what other game modes there are just to see how different and unique that is.
I look at it really as a case where you are benefitting from a previous game....which also isn't allowed at MARP. You have just saved the previous game stuff in the nvram file so you have the special modes available.
This varies versus OS used....vs platform used etc.
Unzipping that archive with a windows locked file in linux or MacOS X etc. won't result in a locked file. The user will have to realize they need to lock it.
This might even be true for dos as well...but not sure there.
It's a shame in a way that you won't get to play that other game mode(s). However, it seems from the above info this would be totally possible without using any nvram file if F3 was tracked in inp recordings.
IMHO, F3 should be tracked. Perhaps this can be added in a near future version of mame.
Also...to open another aspect to this...can the mode(s) you get and score etc. actually vary versus the nvram values besides just the availability of it? I could see some player knowing some other trick or code(s) where he makes his own nvram file for use for their recordings....gaining an advantage over those using the suggested nvram file.
Are you going to run chksums on each upload for the game to verify the correct nvram file was used? How do you handle that for variants that maybe have a different nvram file format then?
If you already know none of that is a factor...fine. This needed to be discussed before the vote. The vote was pretty much complete before all of these aspects were discussed. It's clear most think even in the case of allowing special modes nvram shouldn't be allowed...without even considering the other troubles users might run into trying to do that.
Given the cases pointed out above instead of voting no for this I likely would have abstained. It would also require seeing a sample inp showing the use of the nvram and what other game modes there are just to see how different and unique that is.
I look at it really as a case where you are benefitting from a previous game....which also isn't allowed at MARP. You have just saved the previous game stuff in the nvram file so you have the special modes available.
*sigh*
How exactly did you think someone was going to gain an advantage anyway?
Different file format? What are you talking about?? The .nv format has stayed constant ever since m36b14.
Pretty much any SFA3 machine you will see in an arcade will have everything unlocked automatically because it's based on time. PREVIOUS GAMES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
Are we now assuming that everyone who comes to MARP knows nothing about computers? I mean christ, it takes a bit of knowledge just to get MAME up and running. If they can do that, I think they can figure out how to edit the properties on files and make it Read-only.LN2 wrote:ok, so now the users have to also realize this and make sure the file is locked...and if it isn't locked know how to properly lock it.
and you think someone using Linux isn't going to know how to make files write-protected? Come on now. Point taken on about Macs, but there's you and TECH-D.... who else comes to the site regularly and submits .inps on Macs?This varies versus OS used....vs platform used etc.
Unzipping that archive with a windows locked file in linux or MacOS X etc. won't result in a locked file. The user will have to realize they need to lock it.
Is ANYBODY still running their computer off pure DOS or Windows 3.1?This might even be true for dos as well...but not sure there.
Ummmmm, if somebody makes their own NVRAM file and records, then it's probably not going to work with the designated one created just for recording. Because a person playing back the recording needs to use that same file.Also...to open another aspect to this...can the mode(s) you get and score etc. actually vary versus the nvram values besides just the availability of it? I could see some player knowing some other trick or code(s) where he makes his own nvram file for use for their recordings....gaining an advantage over those using the suggested nvram file.
How exactly did you think someone was going to gain an advantage anyway?
If it doesn't playback with the "official" posted NVRAM, then it doesn't work. Simple.Are you going to run chksums on each upload for the game to verify the correct nvram file was used? How do you handle that for variants that maybe have a different nvram file format then?
Different file format? What are you talking about?? The .nv format has stayed constant ever since m36b14.
Running the poll was a very bad idea on Kelly's part, since all the specifics on what should be allowed and the reasons to use them/ban them were not listed or linked to in the thread, which causes people who don't know a damn thing about the game to just cast their vote. Pretty much anyone voting No is somebody who's never played the game and probably never will (as evidenced by Alex's silly "spite" towards the game over the Hyper Sports thing), just dooming the players who enjoy the game to an unsatisfying decision by people ignorant of the issue.Given the cases pointed out above instead of voting no for this I likely would have abstained. It would also require seeing a sample inp showing the use of the nvram and what other game modes there are just to see how different and unique that is.
This isn't Crystal Castles. You could turn an arcade cabinet on for the first time, leave it powered on for a couple months, and everything gets time-released automatically. And then the first game ever played on it has the unlocked stuff, with no benefit from the previous game.I look at it really as a case where you are benefitting from a previous game....which also isn't allowed at MARP. You have just saved the previous game stuff in the nvram file so you have the special modes available.
Pretty much any SFA3 machine you will see in an arcade will have everything unlocked automatically because it's based on time. PREVIOUS GAMES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
Just did some testing, especially for Rick 
I created a zip file in four different apps and put in it a read-only inp file and then attempted to see if each app liked the different file atttributes.
The apps are: PKZip 2.04g, WinRAR 3.0, Windows Me (built-in support), and zip/unzip 2.3 (as included with Red Hat Linux 7.2).
Results:
Zip types - PKZip and WinRAR produce DOS zips, Windows Me produces a Windows NTFS zip (go figure), and zip gives a Unix zip. All are version 2.0.
zip/unzip reads the DOS/Windows zip attributes fine, extracting a file with r--r--r-- permissions as expected, except for the WinRAR one, which gave r--------. I guess it's effectively the same.
PKZip shows its age - it does NOT read the attributes from the Linux zip, producing a normal file.
Thankfully, both WinRAR and Windows do read that, and produce a read-only file.
Now, as MacOS X is Unix based, I don't see a problem with compiling zip/unzip there, if that hasn't already been done. It should read Unix/Linux file attributes without any fuss whatsoever.
I created a zip file in four different apps and put in it a read-only inp file and then attempted to see if each app liked the different file atttributes.
The apps are: PKZip 2.04g, WinRAR 3.0, Windows Me (built-in support), and zip/unzip 2.3 (as included with Red Hat Linux 7.2).
Results:
Zip types - PKZip and WinRAR produce DOS zips, Windows Me produces a Windows NTFS zip (go figure), and zip gives a Unix zip. All are version 2.0.
zip/unzip reads the DOS/Windows zip attributes fine, extracting a file with r--r--r-- permissions as expected, except for the WinRAR one, which gave r--------. I guess it's effectively the same.
PKZip shows its age - it does NOT read the attributes from the Linux zip, producing a normal file.
Thankfully, both WinRAR and Windows do read that, and produce a read-only file.
Now, as MacOS X is Unix based, I don't see a problem with compiling zip/unzip there, if that hasn't already been done. It should read Unix/Linux file attributes without any fuss whatsoever.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Ok, but you all seem to think it's all so easy.
it seems to me a little instruction manual is going to have to be included with the zipped nvram file users would have to use telling them to make sure the file is read-only after installing it.
...and afterward to remove the nvram folder...or switch to a different nvram location for versions of mame that support that(macmame doesn't) etc. We often see new marp members using nvram etc. until they are instructed how to remove it etc. Now for this game you would want them to reinstall it..but only for use for this 1 game....not to use it otherwise. I can see one of them yelling 'ahhhhhh' on the edge of insanity from that now.
This seems to be a lot ot trouble just to allow a splitting of a game into different tracks when you can get all this simply by tracking F3/resets in the inp.
Then you only have 1 additional brief statement telling the user what they must do. Enter this code.... Press F3 to reset at the start of each recording.....quite simple compared to downloading a file, installing it...checking it's read-only...then switching nvram folder location or moving it in/out etc. I'm pretty sure any vote if even needed for a code entry and F3 press to play that other mode would be approved by the voters.
it's clear using nvram isn't approved even in this special case...so I was already looking at alternatives since your above method isn't going to be approved. Perhaps I shouldn't have been looking ahead until the poll is over but it seemed over to me when the "no nvram" was clearly winning given you actually need 2/3rds saying allow the nvram.
it seems to me a little instruction manual is going to have to be included with the zipped nvram file users would have to use telling them to make sure the file is read-only after installing it.
...and afterward to remove the nvram folder...or switch to a different nvram location for versions of mame that support that(macmame doesn't) etc. We often see new marp members using nvram etc. until they are instructed how to remove it etc. Now for this game you would want them to reinstall it..but only for use for this 1 game....not to use it otherwise. I can see one of them yelling 'ahhhhhh' on the edge of insanity from that now.
This seems to be a lot ot trouble just to allow a splitting of a game into different tracks when you can get all this simply by tracking F3/resets in the inp.
Then you only have 1 additional brief statement telling the user what they must do. Enter this code.... Press F3 to reset at the start of each recording.....quite simple compared to downloading a file, installing it...checking it's read-only...then switching nvram folder location or moving it in/out etc. I'm pretty sure any vote if even needed for a code entry and F3 press to play that other mode would be approved by the voters.
it's clear using nvram isn't approved even in this special case...so I was already looking at alternatives since your above method isn't going to be approved. Perhaps I shouldn't have been looking ahead until the poll is over but it seemed over to me when the "no nvram" was clearly winning given you actually need 2/3rds saying allow the nvram.
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Buttermaker
- MARP Seer
- Posts: 788
- Joined: Sun May 19, 2002 9:06 am
You're saying that the average MARP user is stupid. That's not very nice. And like I said to Abbe on the first page:Chad wrote:oh better than i thought, diff nvram dir! but still too much "more" work for the average user.
Buttermaker wrote:Just because a newbie might be confused is no reason not to do this. I'll write the special rules if you want and everybody with common sense will be able to understand what's going on.
The link will be in the special rules and this concerns only people interested in SFA3 survival mode anyway.Right now I don't have to do anything but double click and the script knows which game+version. I already have enough script options force nvram and no sound things, it could be done but i wouldn't want to add an option to use nvram for certain games for which -split name. So i'm still against it
Exactly. And if somebody doesn't understand it he/she can just ask on the board or in #marp and somebody will help them.BBH wrote:But if the instructions on how exactly to record and playback are put in the Special Rules, what's the big deal? I don't think it's THAT complicated for people here to figure out.
All you need to know is:LN2 wrote: It would also require seeing a sample inp showing the use of the nvram and what other game modes there are just to see how different and unique that is.
Buttermaker wrote:We have survival mode competitions in Garou and Street Fighter Zero 2 Alpha.
I heard there are hordes of Mac users right around the corner preparing to submit shitloads of SFA3 Inps but they're having trouble because the upload script doesn't work properly.BBH wrote:Point taken on about Macs, but there's you and TECH-D.... who else comes to the site regularly and submits .inps on Macs?
Yeah, why are you trying to spoil it for the people wanting to record or watch? This doesn't concern anybody except the people interested in the game.Pretty much anyone voting No is somebody who's never played the game and probably never will (as evidenced by Alex's silly "spite" towards the game over the Hyper Sports thing), just dooming the players who enjoy the game to an unsatisfying decision by people ignorant of the issue.
We have already proven that it is in fact easy.LN2 wrote:Ok, but you all seem to think it's all so easy.
But OK, let's imagine this: The SFA3 survival mode split is set up and the easy to understand special rules are in place. A user uploads a recording and makes some mistake making the recording invalid. What's gonna happen is this: A confirmer interested in SFA3 will download the recording and notice the error. I can almost guarantee you that this confirmer will either be BBH, Barry or I. BBH and Barry are editors so the recording will get zeroed right away and the description will be edited telling the user what he did wrong. If I download the Inp and notice an error I will immediately talk to an editor in #marp. Either BBH, Barry, QRS or Phil will take care of the recording more or less immediately. This problem will not even make it to the Playbackability forum. Nobody will have any trouble with this.
Like I said:it seems to me a little instruction manual is going to have to be included with the zipped nvram file users would have to use telling them to make sure the file is read-only after installing it.
Buttermaker wrote:I'll write the special rules if you want and everybody with common sense will be able to understand what's going on.
...and afterward to remove the nvram folder
You will not have to remove the folder called "sfa3". It can stay there forever. It will only be used when watching or recording an SFA3 survival mode Inp.Buttermaker wrote:All you have to do when recording or playing back is adding "nvram_directory sfa3" to your command line.
If somebody doesn't have the common sense to read and understand the MARP rules that's their problem.We often see new marp members using nvram etc. until they are instructed how to remove it etc.
Reinstalling would mean creating the default folder called "nvram". We are using a folder called "sfa3" which is only used in SFA3 survival mode recordings by adding "nvram_directory sfa3" to the command line.Now for this game you would want them to reinstall it..but only for use for this 1 game....not to use it otherwise.
First of all: How many newbies without common sense who somehow figured out how to set up MAME come to MARP for an SFA3 survival mode Inp?I can see one of them yelling 'ahhhhhh' on the edge of insanity from that now.
Second: Just because somebody might have a problem with those special rules initially is no reason to spoil this for the people who want it.
- The poll doesn't contain clear information about what we actually want.it's clear using nvram isn't approved even in this special case...so I was already looking at alternatives since your above method isn't going to be approved.
- The poll doesn't contain any information about how it's going to work.
- There is no link to the original discussion
- The original discussion obviously isn't finished.
- I never wanted to start a poll about this.
The poll doesn't count. This is not about a leeching technique or a scoring system. It's a fact that we have survival mode splits for Garou and Street Fighter Zero 2 Alpha. So SFA3 survival mode should be split as well.
No Barry...it doesn't. I'm a little confused why pc mame has it where you can set pathnames for roms, nvram, etc. wherever you want on the HD. I guess that's nice to have that flexibility but it really isn't necessary.
I think I likely could use a different directory...but just making an alias called "nvram" that goes in the macmame. That alias can then point to any other folder which would then be used.
I'll have to try that to see if that works....just to see it does work.
One thing I wish macmame had was an .ini file that runs a script to set up settings on launching. That would allow for a bit more flexibility in settings. A 'refresh' function would be nice also. if you move rom files around or add more you need to restart macmame to get the game listing updated.
However, not sure if pc mames support this, but in macmame for the roms you can put them into separate folders etc. all you want...as long as it's within the roms folder. This is handy.
In regards to most of the above..why are you guys trying to convince me or blaming me for not supporting the use of nvram in this case? if I was the only one that voted no then it would have easily gotten approved. the vast majority are voting no on this one.
Again perhaps if the above discussion occurred before the poll was created we maybe would have had a much different result. oh well.
I think I likely could use a different directory...but just making an alias called "nvram" that goes in the macmame. That alias can then point to any other folder which would then be used.
I'll have to try that to see if that works....just to see it does work.
One thing I wish macmame had was an .ini file that runs a script to set up settings on launching. That would allow for a bit more flexibility in settings. A 'refresh' function would be nice also. if you move rom files around or add more you need to restart macmame to get the game listing updated.
However, not sure if pc mames support this, but in macmame for the roms you can put them into separate folders etc. all you want...as long as it's within the roms folder. This is handy.
In regards to most of the above..why are you guys trying to convince me or blaming me for not supporting the use of nvram in this case? if I was the only one that voted no then it would have easily gotten approved. the vast majority are voting no on this one.
Again perhaps if the above discussion occurred before the poll was created we maybe would have had a much different result. oh well.
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Buttermaker
- MARP Seer
- Posts: 788
- Joined: Sun May 19, 2002 9:06 am
All right, time to revive this awesome thread. Here's how you record and play back SFA3 survival mode inps without NVRAM:
Download the file attached to this post and extract cheat.dat into your MAME dir.
Recording:
a) Start MAME with "mame.exe sfa3 -record sfa3 -cheat"
b) Press tab -> Cheat -> Enable/Disable a Cheat -> Survival Mode PL1 -> On
c) Play
Playback:
a) Start MAME with "mame.exe -pb sfa3 -cheat"
b) Press tab -> Cheat -> Enable/Disable a Cheat -> Survival Mode PL1 -> On (you can press p to pause MAME before doing this)
c) Watch
The file I attached also contains a short inp for you to see how easy it is to play it back.
Download the file attached to this post and extract cheat.dat into your MAME dir.
Recording:
a) Start MAME with "mame.exe sfa3 -record sfa3 -cheat"
b) Press tab -> Cheat -> Enable/Disable a Cheat -> Survival Mode PL1 -> On
c) Play
Playback:
a) Start MAME with "mame.exe -pb sfa3 -cheat"
b) Press tab -> Cheat -> Enable/Disable a Cheat -> Survival Mode PL1 -> On (you can press p to pause MAME before doing this)
c) Watch
The file I attached also contains a short inp for you to see how easy it is to play it back.