Greetings everyone!
<p>
It's been quite some time since I've been around MARP. I thought it was time that I jumped in a said a few more words about my absence, as well as a few things that have really taken the wind from my sails with regards to MARP in general.
<p>
When I first found MARP, it was a small collection of high score recordings for MAME. I found it somewhat interesting, but didn't feel the need to participate originally beyond sending in an example INP showing how to get past a certain level of <i>Jack the Giantkiller</i>.
<p>
Shortly after this, the site became automated, and added in the original Leaderboard. I thought hmm... I like the idea of this Leaderboard, what a fun way to compete on all the classic games I used to play!
<p>
The Leaderboard actually pulled me into MARP - I was determined to work my way to the top of the Leaderboard within 1 month (I don't recall if I got into 1st place in that month or not, but I had a blast of a time trying).
<p>
MARP was fun to me.
<p>
Sure, there were always the few problems of players sending in scores played on non-default or TG settings. As well as some games where the TG settings are actually easier than factory defaults (Pengo comes to mind =))
<p>
Disagreements were handled player to player for the most part, with Zwaxy stepping in when things got out of control.
<p>
Over the past 6 months, MARP has grown more than two-fold. It seems that the message board is overrun with constant complaints about non-default settings; non-TG settings; auto-fire joysticks; slow frame-rate gameplay; pausing!?!, etc.
<p>
MARP no longer looks fun to me.
<p>
My advice to everyone:
<p>
Take a step back and remember that MARP isn't necessarily about <b><i>official</i></b> high scores, it's about a group of classic game players sending in their accomplishments for other players to view. If you want an <b><i>official</i></b> high score, send it to Mark Longridge at Twin Galaxies.
<p>
The MARP tournament has a judge for this purpose.
<p>
Will Angry ever return to MARP? I am not really sure at this point. I'm having a lot of fun playing new stuff these days. Maybe a few months from now, maybe a little longer. But if the MARP world continues to revolve around who's cheating how, I may never come back.
<p>
=Angry=
--
angry@thq.com
I remember back in my day ...
Moderator: Chad
-
Aquatarkus
The solution to being overrun with cheating complaints can be summed
up in two words Angry:
<p>
Nuke France
<p>
I'd detected the impossible crap a long time ago, but I didn't want
to start a war over it until other people caught on ... which they
now have. It doesn't matter how small the stakes are, people don't
like getting ripped off. And when it's happening on a continuing
basis, the complaints will roll in until someone fixes the problem or
everyone leaves.
<p>
Aqua
--
aquatarkus@digicron.com
up in two words Angry:
<p>
Nuke France
<p>
I'd detected the impossible crap a long time ago, but I didn't want
to start a war over it until other people caught on ... which they
now have. It doesn't matter how small the stakes are, people don't
like getting ripped off. And when it's happening on a continuing
basis, the complaints will roll in until someone fixes the problem or
everyone leaves.
<p>
Aqua
--
aquatarkus@digicron.com
-
***PL***
Over the past year I've really enjoyed the competitive environment
here at MARP, both as a player AND as an observer. It's original
attraction for me was the impressive repository of recordings. At
first, I didn't really care what the exact settings were for any game,
I just wanted to see how high scores for the old classics were
obtained. Over time I realized that some of these recordings were not
legit or up to par regarding settings or even ethical play. Whenever
I would download a recording and see that cheating was evident, it
would cheapen the whole experience for me. To this day some are
downright upsetting, even more so in the two tournaments. I can't
understand why everyone tolerates this blatent activity prevalent here
at MARP. If no one talks about it then it will never ever get fixed.
It goes beyond fun and games, what ever happened to people's morals?
--
laffaye@ibm.net
here at MARP, both as a player AND as an observer. It's original
attraction for me was the impressive repository of recordings. At
first, I didn't really care what the exact settings were for any game,
I just wanted to see how high scores for the old classics were
obtained. Over time I realized that some of these recordings were not
legit or up to par regarding settings or even ethical play. Whenever
I would download a recording and see that cheating was evident, it
would cheapen the whole experience for me. To this day some are
downright upsetting, even more so in the two tournaments. I can't
understand why everyone tolerates this blatent activity prevalent here
at MARP. If no one talks about it then it will never ever get fixed.
It goes beyond fun and games, what ever happened to people's morals?
--
laffaye@ibm.net
-
Tim Morrow
I understand where you are coming from Angry. However different people
come to MARP for different reasons. For some people it is all about
Official High Scores for others it's just to download great recordings
and watch experts at play. Unfortunately both groups are getting the
shaft. Competitors are seeing dubious game play techniques and being
upset by it and people who want to watch good players play are
realising that they are being duped by cheats and hacked recordings.
It leaves a nasty taste in your mouth. No matter why you come to MARP
you don't want to see what you percieve as cheating.
<p>
I believe all of us would benefit by setting in place a couple of key
policies that will calm a lot of people down, policies that I believe
are easy enough to implement.
<p>
When people start to bitch and complain about the cheating and
non standard recordings (NSR's) etc they aren't doing it because they
have nothing better to do, it's because the issues are fundamental to
them and are cheapening their MARP experience. When you get down to
it, many people are not complaining about NSR's, autofire,
rerecording, pausing, joysticks etc per se, their complaint is in the
context of two fundamental issues -
<p>
1. Those recordings aren't being distingushed against so called
'standard' recordings.
<p>
2. People using these techniques aren't explicitly stating that
they've used these techniques (others have to discover they are being
used)
<p>
Also remember Angry - you don't have to take part in all the
discussion about cheating etc (I know it's hard to avoid). Instead you
can concentrate on the fun facets of MARP - like uploading more of
your great recordings - like Jack the Giant Killer, Gauntlet, Flicky,
Bubbles, Berzerk, Arabian. I'd hate to see you go.
<p>
I too would like to see 'cheating discussions' go away and be replaced
by discussions on game strategy and tips/tricks in games. How about
some people writing up a few walkthroughs for games or even game
reviews. Unfortunately, the cheating topics will abound until
something is done about it - i.e. new policies put in place or the
people start leaving MARP in digust.
--
tjmorrow@bigpond.com
come to MARP for different reasons. For some people it is all about
Official High Scores for others it's just to download great recordings
and watch experts at play. Unfortunately both groups are getting the
shaft. Competitors are seeing dubious game play techniques and being
upset by it and people who want to watch good players play are
realising that they are being duped by cheats and hacked recordings.
It leaves a nasty taste in your mouth. No matter why you come to MARP
you don't want to see what you percieve as cheating.
<p>
I believe all of us would benefit by setting in place a couple of key
policies that will calm a lot of people down, policies that I believe
are easy enough to implement.
<p>
When people start to bitch and complain about the cheating and
non standard recordings (NSR's) etc they aren't doing it because they
have nothing better to do, it's because the issues are fundamental to
them and are cheapening their MARP experience. When you get down to
it, many people are not complaining about NSR's, autofire,
rerecording, pausing, joysticks etc per se, their complaint is in the
context of two fundamental issues -
<p>
1. Those recordings aren't being distingushed against so called
'standard' recordings.
<p>
2. People using these techniques aren't explicitly stating that
they've used these techniques (others have to discover they are being
used)
<p>
Also remember Angry - you don't have to take part in all the
discussion about cheating etc (I know it's hard to avoid). Instead you
can concentrate on the fun facets of MARP - like uploading more of
your great recordings - like Jack the Giant Killer, Gauntlet, Flicky,
Bubbles, Berzerk, Arabian. I'd hate to see you go.
<p>
I too would like to see 'cheating discussions' go away and be replaced
by discussions on game strategy and tips/tricks in games. How about
some people writing up a few walkthroughs for games or even game
reviews. Unfortunately, the cheating topics will abound until
something is done about it - i.e. new policies put in place or the
people start leaving MARP in digust.
--
tjmorrow@bigpond.com
-
Cicca
When I came to MARP, it was to look at great games, and to score some
by myself. Of course, any kind of leaderboard gives sense to it. And
this, regardless to the position I have (I'm floating around #40 for
weeks...).<br> OK, MARP is not TG, but as TG, it has its own rules,
and if you see some of us complaining, is not because we've been
eventually beaten in a game (I found great respect each other,
instead!), but it's because we follow those rules, and some other
not.<br><b>This</b> is what eventually makes MARP less fun !!!
<br><br>I consider this a transition era for Marp, since lately
cheating techniques have been improved too much. I truly hope we'll
find out a way to prevent it, so that we all could complain less and
play more, challenging on the same field, and see other great players
like you Angry come back.<br><br>Cicca
--
cicca@writeme.com
by myself. Of course, any kind of leaderboard gives sense to it. And
this, regardless to the position I have (I'm floating around #40 for
weeks...).<br> OK, MARP is not TG, but as TG, it has its own rules,
and if you see some of us complaining, is not because we've been
eventually beaten in a game (I found great respect each other,
instead!), but it's because we follow those rules, and some other
not.<br><b>This</b> is what eventually makes MARP less fun !!!
<br><br>I consider this a transition era for Marp, since lately
cheating techniques have been improved too much. I truly hope we'll
find out a way to prevent it, so that we all could complain less and
play more, challenging on the same field, and see other great players
like you Angry come back.<br><br>Cicca
--
cicca@writeme.com
-
JoustGod
Good to hear from you once again, Angry. I cannot disagree with the
viewpoints you have expressed.
<p>
The point about TG settings is as simple as you stated...if TG is
important to you, then Mark Longridge is your man to contact. If
leaderboard points are your concern and someone has beaten you
with "non-TG settings", by all means quite whining about it, reset
your settings to match theirs and wail away! Obviously this isn't
encouraging ridiculous settings such as "infinite lives" or the such.
But, I believe that most cases are involving nothing more than
easy/hard , 3 lives/ 5 lives type of settings. No problem. Someone
wants to better one of my scores with this situation? Fine, I'll
readjust to your playing field then. Like I alluded to, this is not
Twin Galaxies. If and when a particular game or technique gets out of
hand, then it can be seriously addressed. Otherwise, stop your
complaining and go get yourself a case of whoop-ass to use on the
player who invaded your territory!
<p>
Tournaments are a different story. The settings that are posted ahead
of time are nearly 100% adhered to and that's great. We do have a
pair of issues that seem to have the MARP community in a bit of an
uproar, and for good reason.
<p>
1) Slow frame-rate recording...this issue is one that I take quite
personally because evidence has been surfacing recently that players
are recording games at frame-rates that greatly dilute any meaning or
significance to the great "legitimate" scores. That is very sad
indeed. The reason I say I take it personally is for the ever-
increasing evidence that at least one player in particular, Phil
Lamat, has done a great deal of work surpassing many of my scores on
the regular MARP site using less than honorable techniques. Don't go
thinking that I'm crying because I "lost" to Phil...no, that's not
the case at all. I've lost to many, many great players here and I'm
fine with it because they truly and simply just out-played me...end
of story. And I salute them for their efforts. I'm not anywhere near
the best player here, but it still can be quite irritating to be
constantly undermined by a player who has shown several times (Track
and Field, Eyes, Crystal Castles to just start the list of obvious
infractions)that his recordings are not a result of playing the game
well more than it is a show of how well a game can be manipulated by
one's computing power (or lack thereof).
<p>
2)Secondly, and this may apply to the previously convicted also (I
mean, sheesh, if you'll use slow frame-rates, what's to stop you
there?)is that the recent finding that MAME can be manipulated to
achieve what I refer to as "recording layering". This one is a bit
more difficult to detect, but a few things have surfaced and are
still being examined by those who are most familiar with the games in
question.
<p>
The fact of the matter is, this is supposed to be for fun with a
little bit of ego sprinkled in for that "edge" of excitement and
inspiration to do better on the pasttime that we all obviously
greatly enjoy. We could do without players that continuously
participate at MARP using the aforementioned techniques. What purpose
is it serving you to do this? I'd really love to hear an answer to
that one. It wouldn't (and shouldn't) matter that much to worry about
the things I'm ranting about except for the fact that I and many
other MARPers put in a great deal of time and effort on our
recordings only to witness our scores being undermined by the lack of
sportsmanship displayed here recently.
<p>
To all the great players who do display a sense of fair play here at
MARP...I applaud your efforts and encourage you to keep up those
great efforts as it is quite fun to watch players of your caliber
perform. Even if it's me you're beating up on...doesn't matter...I'm
just happy to be among a crowd of great players enjoying their hobby.
<p>
JoustGod
--
pinballwiz1@msn.com
viewpoints you have expressed.
<p>
The point about TG settings is as simple as you stated...if TG is
important to you, then Mark Longridge is your man to contact. If
leaderboard points are your concern and someone has beaten you
with "non-TG settings", by all means quite whining about it, reset
your settings to match theirs and wail away! Obviously this isn't
encouraging ridiculous settings such as "infinite lives" or the such.
But, I believe that most cases are involving nothing more than
easy/hard , 3 lives/ 5 lives type of settings. No problem. Someone
wants to better one of my scores with this situation? Fine, I'll
readjust to your playing field then. Like I alluded to, this is not
Twin Galaxies. If and when a particular game or technique gets out of
hand, then it can be seriously addressed. Otherwise, stop your
complaining and go get yourself a case of whoop-ass to use on the
player who invaded your territory!
<p>
Tournaments are a different story. The settings that are posted ahead
of time are nearly 100% adhered to and that's great. We do have a
pair of issues that seem to have the MARP community in a bit of an
uproar, and for good reason.
<p>
1) Slow frame-rate recording...this issue is one that I take quite
personally because evidence has been surfacing recently that players
are recording games at frame-rates that greatly dilute any meaning or
significance to the great "legitimate" scores. That is very sad
indeed. The reason I say I take it personally is for the ever-
increasing evidence that at least one player in particular, Phil
Lamat, has done a great deal of work surpassing many of my scores on
the regular MARP site using less than honorable techniques. Don't go
thinking that I'm crying because I "lost" to Phil...no, that's not
the case at all. I've lost to many, many great players here and I'm
fine with it because they truly and simply just out-played me...end
of story. And I salute them for their efforts. I'm not anywhere near
the best player here, but it still can be quite irritating to be
constantly undermined by a player who has shown several times (Track
and Field, Eyes, Crystal Castles to just start the list of obvious
infractions)that his recordings are not a result of playing the game
well more than it is a show of how well a game can be manipulated by
one's computing power (or lack thereof).
<p>
2)Secondly, and this may apply to the previously convicted also (I
mean, sheesh, if you'll use slow frame-rates, what's to stop you
there?)is that the recent finding that MAME can be manipulated to
achieve what I refer to as "recording layering". This one is a bit
more difficult to detect, but a few things have surfaced and are
still being examined by those who are most familiar with the games in
question.
<p>
The fact of the matter is, this is supposed to be for fun with a
little bit of ego sprinkled in for that "edge" of excitement and
inspiration to do better on the pasttime that we all obviously
greatly enjoy. We could do without players that continuously
participate at MARP using the aforementioned techniques. What purpose
is it serving you to do this? I'd really love to hear an answer to
that one. It wouldn't (and shouldn't) matter that much to worry about
the things I'm ranting about except for the fact that I and many
other MARPers put in a great deal of time and effort on our
recordings only to witness our scores being undermined by the lack of
sportsmanship displayed here recently.
<p>
To all the great players who do display a sense of fair play here at
MARP...I applaud your efforts and encourage you to keep up those
great efforts as it is quite fun to watch players of your caliber
perform. Even if it's me you're beating up on...doesn't matter...I'm
just happy to be among a crowd of great players enjoying their hobby.
<p>
JoustGod
--
pinballwiz1@msn.com