Poll re: Bonus Points in WCC4

Week Challenge Championship board

Moderator: NotMan

Whether to award bonus points for early submission and how?

Poll ended at Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:40 am

1) No bonus
0
No votes
2) One bonus point to the winning recording for each day prior to the last it was submitted
0
No votes
3) One bonus point each day prior to the last to the highest score submitted thus far
2
40%
4) One bonus point after the 2nd, 4th, and 6th days to the highest score submitted thus far
3
60%
 
Total votes: 5

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Weehawk
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Poll re: Bonus Points in WCC4

Post by Weehawk »

Making this poll for Phil so he can see how everyone feels about if/how to award bonus points for early submission.

It will run for three days. He can review the results when he returns from his trip and will make the final decision before the end of the week.

To clarify the options:

1) No bonus points (as in previous years)

2) Phil's original idea. The winning recording gets one bonus point for each day prior to the final day that it was submitted. (If it was submitted the last day - no bonus, if it was submitted the next to last day - 1 bonus point, if it was submitted the first day it would get 6 bonus points, and so on.

3) One bonus point each day prior to the last for the highest score submitted at that point.

4) One bonus point after the 2nd, 4th, and 6th days for the highest score submitted at that point.

Phil has already advised that he prefers #4 to #3.

From my view, the disadvantages to #3 are that it penalizes players that are not able to play every day, and it's more work for Phil.

#4 looks good to me, but since I probably won't be playing most of the games (no Pururun for me, thank you), I won't vote.

In case Phil chooses #3 or #4 someone should probably keep track of who has the high score so far at 0000 hrs GMT each day.
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Phil Lamat
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Post by Phil Lamat »

Not a lot of votes, I see ...
But all votes want bonus points.
As result is 3-2 for a 2-days bonus system, I will apply that for all WCC4 : maximum will be 3 bonus points per week.

It shouldn't change a lot final results, but i hope it will change a little uploading rhythm ; this week (not yet finished) has been far now a very good example of what I expect from players.

I've read all your ideas on the other thread ;
I'm not in favour of blind inputs ; in theory it is the best solution to avoid last-minute-sub but in practical, there is no pleasure to "watch" such a tournament ... what I like is to see fights between players

Random end : I don't like because it gives advantage to the non-working people who can do good scores in the first days

Let's see what the 2-days bonus points give for WCC4, and we will see if it gives acceptable tourney ; it let us the time to find (maybe) a better way (?)
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Post by destructor »

Do you add bonus points in this week (pururun)?
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Post by Phil Lamat »

destructor wrote:Do you add bonus points in this week (pururun)?
Yes ;
but somebody must tell me who got them, as I was away for 4 days
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Post by destructor »

Bleh, not good, I drink vodka 2 days and didn't submit my score from third day - 820k. :?
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Nanni
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Post by Nanni »

Phil Lamat wrote:
destructor wrote:Do you add bonus points in this week (pururun)?
Yes ;
but somebody must tell me who got them, as I was away for 4 days
First day (27/10 ?) i submited a 620k score whic being defeated by 900k score of Des Sunday (31/10)

But maybe im wrong :roll:

Bye
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Post by destructor »

I have 1 bonus point: 31.10-1.11 score 1,2mln

PS. Where are jvrm.net players?
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Post by Chad »

Phil Lamat wrote:I've read all your ideas on the other thread ;
I'm not in favour of blind inputs ; in theory it is the best solution to avoid last-minute-sub but in practical, there is no pleasure to "watch" such a tournament ... what I like is to see fights between players
I agree, but in terms of fighting you CAN see most of the fighting comparing the final scores when the week/competition is finished, when all players and viewers can see scores in a blind competition. However, i think the bonus points ideas are good; though i think they should be higher the sooner you submit... but not sure how ;(
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jvrm players

Post by sawys »

destructor wrote:I have 1 bonus point: 31.10-1.11 score 1,2mln

PS. Where are jvrm.net players?
It seems that everyone of us missed time for playing seriously.
Maybe just me could do it actually but i must slow my playing cos i missed time too and i really must take care of my wife and my baby :)

In fact, it seems that it is from 2 weeks before the end of the K4 ;)

See you soon :)
Sawys is Sébastien GIRAUD, admin of MAMESCORE, member of MARP, TWIN GALAXIES, RETRO UPRISING and ex-member of JVRM :-D
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Post by LordGaz »

It's kind of a hard problem to solve, intractable, a bit like the leaderboard problem there is no perfect solution. I had a few ideas but they all fall flat.

Ideally a recording should be uploaded as soon as it is made or as soon as you next go online but there's no way to enforce this. A MAME could conceivably be built where you have the option to upload your final inp when the game is over otherwise the inp is lost forever, in other words you can't 'hoard' your inp. Or it could go into an 'outbox' for the next time you connect. All a bit far fetched.

If you can't force an upload then somehow there should be a way to encourage players to upload their best scores early. So we need a formula that somehow couples points for earliness of the upload and the score. Unfortunately I don't think a suitable formula exists.

Conditions of the 'magic formula':
> The higher a player's final score, the more points s/he gets.
> Players get rewarded for early uploads.
> Final 1st place should always beat the final 2nd place which beats 3rd etc.

It's hard to come up with a solution where these conditions don't conflict with each other. If a Bob beats Fred in a game by 1 point but Fred submitted on day one and Bob submitted on the last day, there isn't much room to reward Fred for his early upload.

Another idea is to give points every time you improve your ranking. Say, 3 points bonus if you upload a 1st place score, 2 points for a 2nd place score and 1 point for a 3rd place score. You only get these bonuses if you improve your position not if you improve your own score and remain in the same position.

This could create interesting battles at the top places and it would also encourage early uploading of good scores to make it difficult for others to improve their position and score bonuses.

There are lots of flaws with that idea but it sounds good anyway :).

Gaz.
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Post by dbh »

Ideally a recording should be uploaded as soon as it is made or as soon as you next go online but there's no way to enforce this. A MAME could conceivably be built where you have the option to upload your final inp when the game is over otherwise the inp is lost forever, in other words you can't 'hoard' your inp. Or it could go into an 'outbox' for the next time you connect. All a bit far fetched.
I actually like this idea and it wouldn't even require making a version of MAME that does it automatically. In the Deca, this is implemented as a 48-hour rule (ie, any recording you submit must be sent within 48 hours of it being recorded) which works okay with the Deca's timeframe of 3 to 6 months. For a weekly challenge, the "48" would need to be much smaller, say 1 or 2 hours (ideally, it would be "immediately" after recording, but leaving a little bit of leeway is probably the right thing to do).

The thing this doesn't help is someone simply practicing the whole week then recording and submitting a single final submission near the end. It might end up not being their best recording of the week, but it might be good enough for them. Maybe combining this with bonus points would result in a more fair system.
Conditions of the 'magic formula':
> The higher a player's final score, the more points s/he gets.
> Players get rewarded for early uploads.
> Final 1st place should always beat the final 2nd place which beats 3rd etc.
The third item is really the sticking point. Your example shows that well. It could be argued that if someone posted a top score on the first day and another beats the score by one point on the last day, the first player's "points" received should be even with or maybe even higher than the second player's. That would really be the only reason to introduce bonus points for early submissions.
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Post by Phil Lamat »

So for week 1, bonus points would be 1 for Nanni & 2 for Destructor ... is that correct ?
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Post by LN2 »

LordGaz wrote:Ideally a recording should be uploaded as soon as it is made or as soon as you next go online but there's no way to enforce this. A MAME could conceivably be built where you have the option to upload your final inp when the game is over otherwise the inp is lost forever, in other words you can't 'hoard' your inp. Or it could go into an 'outbox' for the next time you connect. All a bit far fetched.
one of my ideas for my tentative build of MAME was similar to this...

"tournament" mode...auto-submits a zipped form of your replay file to a designated URL when complete. This idea was more for ease of submission to TG and/or MARP. All the personal data needed could be entered in your preference and autosent with the submission. Nice and easy for someone who submits a lot.

it requires you to be online though for timely submission. It wouldn't work too well for dialups where the connection is dropped from being idle while they were playing.

There could be a submit after-the-fact as well but then you have no idea how long they sat on it. The replay file header would include an semi-encrypted code that would be a time and date stamp the web site could discern upon submission.

...or just seen when the replay file is watched.

hmmm, on using the submit feature within the build for an after-the-fact submission the date of play and submission could both be in the replay header. Even then it's hard to enforce...cuz someone with dialup could easily deny they were unable to get online for 10 hours.

it would be hard to dq someone's score just for that.
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Post by destructor »

Phil Lamat wrote:So for week 1, bonus points would be 1 for Nanni & 2 for Destructor ... is that correct ?
Probably 2 for Nanni nad one for me :roll:

27.10-28.10 - Nanni 6xxk
29.10-30.10 - Nanni 6xxk
31.10-01.11 - destructor 1,2mln
02.11 - no bonus

Is it correct?
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Post by MJS »

I just had an idea to ensure if submissions were recorded recently, tell me what you think about it:

For the submission to be valid, the player must enter specific initals in the high score table, and this specific initals are published at the website. The initials can be randomly generated and refreshed after an interval, which can be customized depending on the precision we need, eg. daily.
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