As voted there :
viewtopic.php?t=13953
viewtopic.php?t=14148
viewtopic.php?t=14149
... a new rule is to be added to Marp (in the "Rules" page) :
rule 3b)
"use of any WolfMame version is required if you take 1st place in any game.
Wolfmame versions can be downloaded there :
http://wolfmame.marpirc.net"
This rule isn't retroactive.
I've asked Zwaxy to look for a script which doesn't allow scores breaking this rule to enter leaderboard (like * them or something else) ... waiting his answer.
In other way, editors still can zero them manually, in fact there isn't so much inputs like that nowadays.
New rule : 3b
Moderator: BBH
Re: New rule : 3b
Seriously, I don't get this. Only first place??Phil Lamat wrote: "use of any WolfMame version is required if you take 1st place in any game.
Wolfmame versions can be downloaded there :
http://wolfmame.marpirc.net"
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heh, I don't really care about the scores, I'm just pointing out games that work now which nobody appears to have bothered with :-p
that said I did take a look at how insanely insecure wolfmame is, infact it looks like the only reason it can't currently just convert any normal inp to a wolf inp is due to a bug rather than anything else. I still don't see this rule creating anything but a false sense of security. I *think* it's still capable of converting a wolf inp to another wolf inp tho..
so you could record on a machine at a really slow speed (say 30%)
then play it back on a much faster machine that runs it 100%
then just do
mame game -playback slowinp.wlf -record fastinp.wlf
and it would record the new inp with correct 100% speeds I think.....
It even accepts a non-wolf file as an input, but then the output seems to be corrupt (probably due to a bug)
Sorry for pointing this out, but I just don't see how it's going to help which makes me wonder why so many people seem to think it will...
that said I did take a look at how insanely insecure wolfmame is, infact it looks like the only reason it can't currently just convert any normal inp to a wolf inp is due to a bug rather than anything else. I still don't see this rule creating anything but a false sense of security. I *think* it's still capable of converting a wolf inp to another wolf inp tho..
so you could record on a machine at a really slow speed (say 30%)
then play it back on a much faster machine that runs it 100%
then just do
mame game -playback slowinp.wlf -record fastinp.wlf
and it would record the new inp with correct 100% speeds I think.....
It even accepts a non-wolf file as an input, but then the output seems to be corrupt (probably due to a bug)
Sorry for pointing this out, but I just don't see how it's going to help which makes me wonder why so many people seem to think it will...
If someone does that I am sure someone else who knows the game well will easily realize it was played at slow speed... that's the most important thing, that we point out suspicious recordings.
And I think it nice to have a customized version of MAME to aid this process. At least that's what I think the purpose of WolfMAME is, and in my opinion, it has done the job very well so far.
Of course many improvements can still be done to WolfMAME... for example I always wondered why the extra information isn't stored in a separate file so that the inp is still compatible with official MAME.
So let's not just point out its flaws, but also suggest ideas to improve it and of course, help Barry with the development if we can
And I think it nice to have a customized version of MAME to aid this process. At least that's what I think the purpose of WolfMAME is, and in my opinion, it has done the job very well so far.
Of course many improvements can still be done to WolfMAME... for example I always wondered why the extra information isn't stored in a separate file so that the inp is still compatible with official MAME.
So let's not just point out its flaws, but also suggest ideas to improve it and of course, help Barry with the development if we can
are you saying you can playback and record using wolfmame at the same time?
your above shows you can with regular mame.
..if so that "bug" should get fixed... although I would think you would have timing issue.
..although yeah, false sense cuz there can always be customer builds that would allow the cheats.
it really comes down to whoever reviews the game watches it closely..and not just turn the throttle off and zoom through it and just verify the final score.
your above shows you can with regular mame.
..if so that "bug" should get fixed... although I would think you would have timing issue.
..although yeah, false sense cuz there can always be customer builds that would allow the cheats.
it really comes down to whoever reviews the game watches it closely..and not just turn the throttle off and zoom through it and just verify the final score.
Re-recording has been an issue ever since that so-called "feature" was added way back in 0.35. It is handled at least in 0.107 and later, where INP data cannot be written and read at the same time. Only speed data is stored in the resultant INP, which is something that should probably be stopped too.
And Haze, I don't mind you pointing out bugs and so on (it's not like anyone else is), but you just don't have to pretend to be Neill Corlett to do it.
And Haze, I don't mind you pointing out bugs and so on (it's not like anyone else is), but you just don't have to pretend to be Neill Corlett to do it.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Hey, I'm not pretending to be Neill, infact Neill seems to hate me for some reason, but that's another story.
I'm just pointing out that even attempting to create a secure version of MAME is a fatally flawed idea, with a couple of simple fixes you could convert any inp to a wolfMame inp and basically make it completely worthless. All that would be left is suspicion of cheating, no real proof, nothing that you can't determine from an ordinary inp.
Seriously, while it would be nice to know that people are genuine and have recorded inps without cheating there is simply _no_ way to know, and by enforcing a custom format all you're doing is making the inps on marp incompatible with everything else.
What are you trying to achieve here?
All I can tell you as a developer is that mame isn't even remotely secure, and there is no possible way of making it so. Pretending otherwise is just burying your head in the sand. The re-recording issue alone seems to make the recorded speed meaningless, and with a couple of fixes you could re-record any inp as if it had been played in wolfMame.
I'm not *trying* to cause trouble here, I just want to point out that what you're trying to do is fundamentally flawed and utterly pointless.
I'd love to be able to suggest improvements, but quite frankly there are none that I can suggest. Mame is open source, people can make whatever mods they want, and there is no way around that, don't fool yourselves into thinking there is.
I'm just pointing out that even attempting to create a secure version of MAME is a fatally flawed idea, with a couple of simple fixes you could convert any inp to a wolfMame inp and basically make it completely worthless. All that would be left is suspicion of cheating, no real proof, nothing that you can't determine from an ordinary inp.
Seriously, while it would be nice to know that people are genuine and have recorded inps without cheating there is simply _no_ way to know, and by enforcing a custom format all you're doing is making the inps on marp incompatible with everything else.
What are you trying to achieve here?
All I can tell you as a developer is that mame isn't even remotely secure, and there is no possible way of making it so. Pretending otherwise is just burying your head in the sand. The re-recording issue alone seems to make the recorded speed meaningless, and with a couple of fixes you could re-record any inp as if it had been played in wolfMame.
I'm not *trying* to cause trouble here, I just want to point out that what you're trying to do is fundamentally flawed and utterly pointless.
I'd love to be able to suggest improvements, but quite frankly there are none that I can suggest. Mame is open source, people can make whatever mods they want, and there is no way around that, don't fool yourselves into thinking there is.
Neill used pretty much the same argument.
I am well aware that nothing we can do will totally stop cheating, but I see no reason to not improve the chances of at least catching idiots who either make some daft attempt to cheat, or are just too stupid to realise that their PC is simply too slow (it happens more often than you think).
Doing nothing at all is, to me at least, not fair on those who do play legitimately.
I am well aware that nothing we can do will totally stop cheating, but I see no reason to not improve the chances of at least catching idiots who either make some daft attempt to cheat, or are just too stupid to realise that their PC is simply too slow (it happens more often than you think).
Doing nothing at all is, to me at least, not fair on those who do play legitimately.
- Barry Rodewald
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
MARP Assistant Web Maintainer
Well.. maybe you should consider that it's a valid argument.
Anyway, as you seem pretty set on this I may just have to make a submission to keep the official MAME compatible with the inps here. Whether that just means being able to play the new inp format, or outputting it as well I'm not sure.
If all you care about is stopping people for accidentally cheating, not doing so on purpose then it won't be neccessary to disable pausing etc.
Anyway, as you seem pretty set on this I may just have to make a submission to keep the official MAME compatible with the inps here. Whether that just means being able to play the new inp format, or outputting it as well I'm not sure.
If all you care about is stopping people for accidentally cheating, not doing so on purpose then it won't be neccessary to disable pausing etc.
For the benefit of others reading this exchange (I know the original poster won't get it) this argument is just as valid as the argument that one should not lock one's car when one leaves it, because any decent locksmith could unlock it in 30 seconds, or that one shouldn't lock one's front door at night when one goes to bed, because any two guys off the street with a good battering ram could break it down in less than 5 seconds.Haze wrote:Well.. maybe you should consider that it's a valid argument.
He's not pretending to be Neill Corlett, he is Neill Corlett.Haze wrote:I may just have to make a submission to keep the official MAME compatible with the inps here. Whether that just means being able to play the new inp format, or outputting it as well I'm not sure.
People like that have a tendency to get what's coming to them in the end, someday, somehow.
for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap
Galatians 6:7
John Cunningham (JTC)
Wow, I didn't realize there were anti-wolfies. Nice quick and easy cheat guide...that can't be a good thing. I've never had a problem with wolf versions being required, knowing that it only eliminates the most common cheats(including honest mistakes in rule interpretation). It has been my understanding that wolf wasn't secure, and I'm limited in modern programming methods, but it does give some benefit; not that it's infallible.
If there isn't a wolfmame32 or a working wolfmame with a usable gui, then I won't be able to submit on anything newer than 106. Since I rarely submit if it's not a first, this rule effectively rules me out for anything recent.
What exactly led to all this recent action? Were there just fewer submissions in the wolf format than in the past 1-4 years? I imagine that is the case, since wolfmame32plus has been absent about a year now.
If there isn't a wolfmame32 or a working wolfmame with a usable gui, then I won't be able to submit on anything newer than 106. Since I rarely submit if it's not a first, this rule effectively rules me out for anything recent.
What exactly led to all this recent action? Were there just fewer submissions in the wolf format than in the past 1-4 years? I imagine that is the case, since wolfmame32plus has been absent about a year now.