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Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:34 pm
by Weehawk
Pat wrote:There are really three decisions that need to be made...

• SCORING: percentage OR placement
• CUTOFF: keep top x% OR top x places
• CALCULATION: actual leaderboard points (15% decay, no decay OR 10-3-1, 1-1-1, 1-0-0)
Zwaxy wrote:
Weehawk wrote: Anyway, the community has already voted for a system where points are scaled relative to a score's percentage of the first place score, which this system just now proposed would not be in accordance with.
That vote was for "Do you prefer that the awarding of leaderboard points for a submission be based on percentage of the high score, or solely on place number?". The newly 'SprintGod' system proposes that we don't award leaderboard points at all, but merely sort by number of 1st places, then number of 2nd places, then number of 3rd places. This isn't a point based system, and nothing like it had been proposed at the time of the first poll. The first poll assumed we would be awarding leaderboard points. The community hasn't voted on whether we should award points or not.
And so this is what we are voting on now.

For those who are not slow on the uptake, I apologize for repreating this yet again.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:44 pm
by QRS
SprintGod wrote:
Some idiot wrote:And NO, you obviously don't have a firm understanding of the issues if you believe 1-1-1 scoring is the same as cutoff after 3rd.
SprintGod wrote: I'm sick of you already.
Ok.... stop that talk.. there is no need to use that kind of language here. We all understand your point and what you think. Use the PM button if you wanna flame other people. We don´t want a war here...

Right now you are lowering yourself to a point that you are doing the same thing as you told other people not to do.. posting uninteligent things.
Sprintgod wrote:Either say something intelligent or say nothing.
Nothing wrong with the rest of your post though. Just stop the personal flaming.

Thanks.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 2:46 pm
by SprintGod
Sorry, I tend to get carried away when someone annoys me :D

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:11 pm
by Barthax
Hmmm... there appears to be no cohesive reflection on the different 'leaderboard' options that are being mentioned.

To present what I hope to be something cohesive, here are the options that have been banded about most (some logic has been applied to those posts that use very little description):

%-based with no modification (TG system)
%-based with 15% tail-off (MARP's current system)
%-based with 3rd place cut off, no modification
%-based with 3rd place cut off, 15% tail-off
1-0-0
1-1-1 total
1-1-1 structured (example at http://marp.retrogames.com/olympic.txt )
10-3-1 (badly displayed on the current leaderboard)

So, four players play the same game and achieve scores of A) 100, B) 90, B) 80 and C) 70. Under the above systems, they would gain the following leaderboard points:

%-based with no modification
A) 100
B) 90
C) 80
D) 70

%-based with 15% tail-off (current system)
A) 100
B) 85
C) 70
D) 55

%-based with 3rd place cut off, no modification
A) 100
B) 90
C) 80
D) 0

%-based with 3rd place cut off, 15% tail-off
A) 100
B) 85
C) 70
D) 0

1-0-0
A) 1
B) 0
C) 0
D) 0

1-1-1 total
A) 1
B) 1
C) 1
D) 0

1-1-1 structured
A) 1-0-0
B) 0-1-0
C) 0-0-1
D) 0-0-0

10-3-1
A) 10
B) 3
C) 1
D) 0

---------------------------

The same four players then play a second game with the same results, the leaderboards would become:

%-based with no modification
A) 200
B) 180
C) 160
D) 140

%-based with 15% tail-off (current system)
A) 200
B) 170
C) 140
D) 110

%-based with 3rd place cut off, no modification
A) 200
B) 180
C) 160
D) 0

%-based with 3rd place cut off, 15% tail-off
A) 200
B) 170
C) 140
D) 0

1-0-0
A) 2
B) 0
C) 0
D) 0

1-1-1 total
A) 2
B) 2
C) 2
D) 0

1-1-1 structured
A) 2-0-0
B) 0-2-0
C) 0-0-2
D) 0-0-0

10-3-1
A) 20
B) 6
C) 2
D) 0

-----------------------------

The 1-1-1 structured doesn't show up too good in the above example, so assume that the same four players are have game-placings as follows:

A) 4-2-2
B) 4-1-3
C) 3-2-2
D) 3-2-3

The table would appear as:

A) 4-2-2
B) 4-1-3
D) 3-2-3
C) 3-2-2

Players A & B have the same number of 1st places, so the placing is decided upon the number of 2nd places. Both A & B have more 1st places than C & D, so they are ahead of C & D. Players C & D have the same number of 1st & 2nd places, so their positions are determined by their 3rd places positions. In the current (semi-live) example, http://marp.retrogames.com/olympic.txt , all placings are useful when upper placings are tied (scroll down to the bottom to see better). Note that a "1-1-1 structured with 3rd-place cut off" would not show any individual after the 612th place (correct at the time of writing) - anyone without a 1st, 2nd or 3rd placing.

My only conclusion is "1-1-1 structured" is not the same as "%-based with 3rd place cut off, 15% tail-off"... I leave all other conclusions to other people.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:36 pm
by Barthax
OK, something I missed is the distinction between the %-based systems and the 1-1-1 structured system. Consider the following results:

A) Game 1: 100, Game 2: 100
B) Game 1: 100, Game 2: 3
C) Game 1: 90, Game 2: 90
D) Game 1: 2, Game 2: 2

Using only the following structures:
%-based with no modification (TG system)
%-based with 15% tail-off (MARP's current system)
1-1-1 structured (example at http://marp.retrogames.com/olympic.txt )

%-based with no modification (TG system)
A) 200
C) 180
B) 103
D) 4

%-based with 15% tail-off (MARP's current system)
A) 200
C) 170
B) 103
D) 4

1-1-1 structured (example at http://marp.retrogames.com/olympic.txt )
A) 2-0-0
B) 1-0-1
C) 0-1-1
D) 0-0-0

As you can see, A & D are in the expected positions having either won or lost both games. Players B & C, however have significantly different positions, swapping over between the different styles of leaderboard.

Note: the data is intentionally extreme to better illustrate, but this is not impossible data.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:19 pm
by Dax
QRS wrote:
SprintGod wrote:
Some idiot wrote:And NO, you obviously don't have a firm understanding of the issues if you believe 1-1-1 scoring is the same as cutoff after 3rd.
SprintGod wrote: I'm sick of you already.
Ok.... stop that talk.. there is no need to use that kind of language here. We all understand your point and what you think. Use the PM button if you wanna flame other people. We don´t want a war here...

Right now you are lowering yourself to a point that you are doing the same thing as you told other people not to do.. posting uninteligent things.
Sprintgod wrote:Either say something intelligent or say nothing.
Nothing wrong with the rest of your post though. Just stop the personal flaming.

Thanks.
DITTO!

Maybe you should sit back and learn a few things before act as though you've been here for years. PL and LN2 are highly respected here and I can't even imagine insulting them the way you have.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:32 pm
by Weehawk
8O

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:52 pm
by BBH
LordGaz wrote:
The TJT wrote:If everybody have their own leaderboard scoring, there actually is no leaderboard, only a way to arrange player list.
Well said.
As opposed to the current leaderboard system?

I mean, this is getting so silly.... there are people who support and oppose nearly all of the scoring systems that have been proposed. Making any of these official is going to leave someone upset. The logical step is to implement ALL of them and give each player the choice of making whatever style they want to be their "default" leaderboard. But people are opposed to this too because they think it's not going to accomplish anything in terms of ranking players? Hello, none of these systems are perfect for truly proving the skill of players!

Heck, implementing different systems might even increase activity at MARP in general if different players have different things to work for. There are a lot less recordings being uploaded these days, activity is way down... I don't foresee the olympic system singlehandedly solving this problem at all.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:07 pm
by LN2
SprintGod wrote:I only put down people when they say something incredibly stupid.
Your put-downs are what are stupid. They accomplish nothing toward resolving the leaderboard issue which has now gotten all blown out of proportion from many who really would prefer the leaderboard be totally removed.
With this system or one derived on it, every recording has at least some value, even though it may be tiny.
How do you figure that?

With the 1-0-0 system, for most, especially near the top of the leaderboard, only first place scores matter. Their second place and lower place scores will mean NOTHING toward their leaderboard standing. Only those much lower on the leaderboard will benefit from having more 2nd and/or 3rd place scores submitted where they are tied for the #firsts with many other members.

I always viewed the MARP leaderboard where the top 5-10 sort of matter...for showing who has contributed the most to MARP.

Beyond that, if someone is #25 vs #80 vs #410 depending on which formula is used...who cares?!? Very few if anyone should.

Previous discussions and this discussion have shown that the top 10, with a couple exceptions changes very little using the current system vs the 10-3-1 system versus even this proposed 1-0-0 system.

Given this, why risk drastically decreasing activity from oversimplifying the leaderboard and making it more meaningless than it already is.

I laughed when above examples showed someone at #400 vs #810 on the leaderboard if this olympic method is used. Novice, Frankie and a couple others are the only ones near the top of the leaderboard that drastically change position based on the method used. Novice has many times stated he doesn't care about the leaderboard. Heck, he doesn't really care about MARP as he has often shown disrespect of MARP and its members.

Also, there will be far more players in an odd ranking on the leaderboard with the 1-0-0 system versus if we had a 10-3-1 or the current point based system.
And I wish people would stop talking as if the leaderboard was so damn important.
The whole idea from the start was to change the scoring and sorting of the leaderboard so those that have 100s of "rest"(meaning 4th place and lower) scores and not many top 3 scores can't be ranked higher than those with more top 3 scores but not 100s of 4th place or lower place scores.

A 1-0-0 is far more drastic than what is needed to accomplish the above initial objective that started this whole leaderboard discussion.

Why risk participation from this type of change?

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:27 pm
by MJS
SprintGod wrote:MARP would easily survive without a leaderboard, but all the competition would be isolated to individual games.

...which might even be a good thing, because then people will only submit for games that they actually care about.
I don't mind people submiting for games they don't care about, and I don't see why somebody would.

For me the competition is already isolated to individual games. It is nice to climb up in the leaderboard but I think it doesn't mean much no matter which system you use to order it.

To sum up: I don't give a sh#t about the leaderboard! :lol:

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:07 pm
by Dax
BBH wrote:There are a lot less recordings being uploaded these days, activity is way down...
While this may be attributed to lack of interest here in the short term, in the long term uploads must go down do to the fact that scores are becoming harder to beat. With every upload the difficulty for beating the score on a game is ramped up. Many years from now it may be impossible to upload a 1st place score. Although I used to say the same thing about World Records in the Olympics, people still keep raising the bar. People may keep getting better and better. I still can't help but think things will slow down as scores begin to hit their maximum limits.

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:29 pm
by sikraiken
Dax wrote:
BBH wrote:There are a lot less recordings being uploaded these days, activity is way down...
While this may be attributed to lack of interest here in the short term, in the long term uploads must go down do to the fact that scores are becoming harder to beat. With every upload the difficulty for beating the score on a game is ramped up. Many years from now it may be impossible to upload a 1st place score. Although I used to say the same thing about World Records in the Olympics, people still keep raising the bar. People may keep getting better and better. I still can't help but think things will slow down as scores begin to hit their maximum limits.
I think we need to recruit some new members to MARP. :D

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:16 am
by SprintGod
Dax wrote:PL and LN2 are highly respected here.
This would be incredibly hilarious if I didn't know you were being serious.
MJS wrote:To sum up: I don't give a sh#t about the leaderboard!
Nor do quite a few people, it seems. I'm curious... perhaps we should have a poll entitled "Do you give a damn what happens to the leaderboard", or something to that effect. :D

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:17 am
by wuzel
what can i say.
for me at this moment LB isnt that important as the time i ve entered MARP.
so maybe 1-0-0 method is better but surely it will reduce the number of inp sending 2 marp.
all will be trying to gather more and more points 2 beat the first place maybe even a one or 10 points - is this better - as some1 said Time will tell.
thats ma opinion.
i m trying to return to marp but surely only for fun of playing and maybe getting some places - maybe we should have more competitions???

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:09 pm
by Frankie
SprintGod wrote:
Dax wrote:PL and LN2 are highly respected here.
This would be incredibly hilarious if I didn't know you were being serious.
I think you should be ashamed of yourself. If you knew how much work Pat have put into MARP, I don't think you would say this. I can't believe he isn't respected here on MARP, if not, something is wrong with the members here I think.