Quantum leeching

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Quantum leeching

Post by JoustGod »

I hadn't realized how severe Quantum leeching had gotten until I saw Dax's notation for his latest .inps. While I had personally found a different type of leeching almost 5 years ago on this title, I had always figured my score wasn't anywhere near where a "real" Quantum player could reach. So, I never gave it much thought and I noted my leeching in the remarks that accompanied my .inp. Btw, my leeching was in reaction to German Krol's leeching...I just took his method a few steps further.

While the newer style of leeching on this game is rather clever (much in the way Reactor was brought to its knees), it shows relatively little skill to achieve. I've tried it out myself. While it takes a while to calibrate your movements correctly, once done it is a mockery of the game. I suspect by watching that Dax is using a mouse and Blost is possibly using a mouse pen of some sort judging by the very tight, concise circular motions he was able to get. Either way, the result is basically the same.

This is not too far from Time Pilot-type leeching where a vast majority of your points can be scored in the very early stages of the game. Although, this seems to be a bit more difficult to maintain, it is nevertheless a poor way to support a high score. From what I can see, Blost and Dax can both play this title with great skill. It would be a far better achievment for them to maintain a high score without resorting to this type of score padding.
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Post by zlk »

I have seen these replays and it seems that this type of leeching can only be done on the earlier stages. Eventually the game ramps up its difficulty and you can't do it anymore. Using this method past level 7 is probably impossible.

I personally believe that people should be allowed to play this way. Everyone can use this technique, it can only be done for so long, so I see no harm in using it. The game quickly becomes really hard so in the end the best player will achieve the highest score anyway.
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Post by Dax »

Hmm...

I tend to agree that you can't leech this way past level 5 or 6 or so however, if you have a quick, steady hand theres no need to ever get that far and still amass rediculous points. I use an optical mouse. From what Ive learned as you begin to leech you have to let the mouse drift down a little as you continue to make circles in order to stay in the same spot on screen(not sure why this happens but it does, maybe its just fatigue) eventually forcing you to lift up the mouse and replace it higher on the pad. This generally ends the leech forcing you to move on. But if you're quick enough you can lift the mouse up and replace it without breaking stride. Ive managed to do it several times. In this way the leeching can become infinite and Ive tried proving that several times. Seems Ive finally made my point.

Ive mentioned before that this type of leeching should be forbidden. I personally think roncli is the man at this game for reaching level 42. And am more proud of my WCC level 37 game than any of these leeched games. But if Blost and Wonder are allowed to do it then Ill be damned if Im not...
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Post by LN2 »

There is no difference between that and someone who just maximizes points on levels in tons of other games.

...like someone who delays shooting up the centipede segments in centipede to get extra spiders early in the game...as long as they don't make those side feed mushroom traps. The game would still get progressively harder as your score increases.

It sounds like for quantum even though you can leech a lot on early levels there still is some max you can leech before it gets too risky or before you must move on to the next level. I had played this game a few times a year ago and quickly noticed how you can leech....but didn't try it to see to what extent you can leech and what risk develops as you delay completion of a level.

The main thing is if doing this leeching is fairly trivial, then once skilled players like roncli know of it they will be able to match or surpass the existing scores.

I think when leeching isn't ok is when the entire replay shows less skill yet far more score than others. I'll check out these inps but it doesn't sound like that is the case here.
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Post by QRS »

Rick:

Check the recording first, and you might change opinion..
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Post by JoustGod »

I guess the only thing that struck me negatively was the percentage of overall points being amassed this way. It is quite large. As good as Dax and Blost are at doing this leech, I still think there is room for someone to come along and really exploit it by further refining their technique. Once that happens, this game is reduced to nothing more than who can perfect the "circle leech" best. At that point, the fact that the leeching can be done only in early stages, will become meaningless. Leeching comprises 60-75 percent of the current scores (sorry I don't have exact figures at the moment). I don't see any reason for this not to increase as this escalates. Unfortunately, "real" skill at this game is penalized as the scoring rate is far less when the player is finally forced to actually play the game.

Like I said before, it appears that Dax and Blost are actually quite good playing this game. However, it is only a matter of time when someone not quite as good discovers this technique and exploits it to a degree we haven't imagined yet. I like to use Reactor as an example in this case. Although, not exactly the same, the point is that there is always someone out there that can exploit weaknesses in games that the rest of us never thought of.
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Post by LN2 »

yes, I'll have to watch those replays.

However, it would help this discussion as well as others that when something like this is brought up a proposal for a "fix" be made.

ie. do you want to assign score based on levels cleared also?

Perhaps you can allow the leeching but then add so many points to the final score based on levels cleared...so those clearing more levels would definitely have more points.

Then this gives us something to compare current scoring to....at this point I have no idea what you propose to change it to...so can't totally judge how bad the current situation is except perhaps that the game is this flaw....as many games do.

There are 100+ other games at MARP where this type of action is accepted. There are many games where beyond the first 4-5 stages the game becomes virtually impossible to complete stages/levels so you stay on the earlier levels and leech as much as you can to get the high score.

For others the game crashes at a certain stage(masao), so to beat the current posted scores you just leech a bit more on the stages you can play before the game crashes versus what the others did.

...so propose something to consider for an alternate scoring method or extra score to add to the actual score based on cleared levels or something...or perhaps a levels cleared with score subtract based on time per level.
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Post by Weehawk »

For those not familiar with this game, or that haven't watched the technique in question, the object of the game is to circle floating atoms with a tracer device (once), eliminating them and scoring points. Players have discovered that by circling an atom repeatedly in a rapid manner that they can get credit for the same atom over and over, many times. This may be possible to do indefinitely if one got good enough at it - I don't know.

I don't think this was intended to be possible by the designers, but the bottom line is, in my opinion, it spoils the game completely.

This is not such a great tragedy as when I played the game I felt I was getting to the point where MAME's analog overflow problem was going to prohibit further progress anyway.
Dax wrote:I personally think roncli is the man at this game for reaching level 42
That's the other reason I didn't worry too much about the leeching technique. If all scores using the technique were eliminated, I believe that would leave roncli's recording in first place again. This is the same player that submitted a recording played at 42% speed for one of the WCC tournaments, leaving one to wonder if this recording was played at regulation speed. We'll never know.

Thank God for WolfMAME, otherwise preload's deleted recordings would also be left for players to wonder about for years to come.
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Post by JoustGod »

OK. A proposal you want. A proposal you shall have. Eliminate any repeat circling altogether. Circle once, you're done. This makes the issue for this particular title very clear cut.

This is a game where there is a vast difference between arcade and MAME versions. If you've played the arcade version (I have), then you'll understand that the particular trick in question is virtually impossible with the trackball on the game. Weehawk's assessment that this was not intended by the creators of the game is right on the mark. By impossible I mean there is no way to get the amount of repititions achieved by our fellow MARPers. With the MAME version, controller choice (most commonly for trackball games) is the mouse. Much easier to get a tight enough and fast enough circular motion going. With a device like a pen and tablet type of movement controller, I can see this whole thing taking on another level by someone with dedication...of which MARP seems to have more than its share of dedicated players. ;-)

The reason I bring this up is for the fact that with practice, a player can easily exploit the controller issue. I'm alright with point maximization, but not when the particular technique creates a bulk of the total game points. So the only way around this is simple elimination of repeated circling.

Rick, please take a look at the .inps in question so you understand precisely what is being discussed here. I'm sure a player of your stature will immediately recognize a need to address this issue now.
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Post by Dax »

I agree

Others have said that after a certain point the game becomes too difficult to use this technique. That its not infinite. But on the first few levels it can be infinite. All a player, whose perfected this method, would have to do is leech a million points off of level one and lose every man on level 2 to beat anyone elses high score. Without ever getting to the levels where this method can't be utilized anymore.

Here is another proposed method that would eliminate it all together. Make it mandatory to start on level 7 or 9 since this is an option at the beginning of the game. This would eliminate those early levels where the leeching is abused.
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Post by zlk »

Personally I think the technique is impossible to do after level 7 or so. I also think people are limited in the amount of points they can score using it. People are going to do the tactic and start out with 300k. To me this seems like no big deal at all. Who cares if the majority of points are scored this way? The better player will come out on top in the end since this technique cannot be done forever.

But I may be wrong. If someone can demonstrate that this technique can be done forever, then I would change my mind about its need to be banned. How about someone make an inp scoring 5 million using this tactic?
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Post by Weehawk »

Dax wrote:Here is another proposed method that would eliminate it all together. Make it mandatory to start on level 7 or 9 since this is an option at the beginning of the game. This would eliminate those early levels where the leeching is abused.
And these levels are trivially simple for anyone adept at the game.
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Post by Dax »

Would that really change your mind?

Im not to enthusiastic about making a recording like that but I believe I could do it with a little fortitude. It would be horribly boring and time consuming. The very reason why I haven't tried it yet. Its not that its impossible but that I get just plain sick of doing it and move on. That and it starts to make my eyes hurt after doing it for several minutes. This game shouldn't be a contest of whos eyes can take it the longest.
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Post by JoustGod »

zlk wrote:If someone can demonstrate that this technique can be done forever, then I would change my mind about its need to be banned. How about someone make an inp scoring 5 million using this tactic?
My point is that someone will likely do such a recording in the future. It's hard to say exactly when that will happen. If you try the method yourself, you might be able to see that this particular technique has all the possiblity of being exploited to an unreasonable degree.

I don't think there is a need to have to demonstrate, Dax. I'm hoping that anyone who actually understands the situation here can see where it's leading to. Yes, it will take a great deal of stamina and dedication to pull off such a game. But, all I can see to this point is simple human error preventing this leech from going further. Eventually, someone will overcome the error factor and put up a gigantic score via leeching. There is nothing I can see gamewise that will prevent it. Only "human-wise"...;-)
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Post by JoustGod »

Dax wrote:Here is another proposed method that would eliminate it all together. Make it mandatory to start on level 7 or 9 since this is an option at the beginning of the game. This would eliminate those early levels where the leeching is abused.
By the way...I do like this proposal better.
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