Time Pilot

Discussion about MARP's regulation play

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Zhorik
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Time Pilot

Post by Zhorik » Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:34 am

Are TGTS allowed for Time Pilot? These settings are Difficulty 8 (Hardest) and extras at 20K and every 60K, as opposed to defaults of Difficulty 3 and extras at 10K and every 50K, BUT TG allows leeching on TGTS.

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Post by mahlemiut » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:16 am

Sure, but you're just not allowed to leech. Why TG allow that in the first place though, is somewhat odd.
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Post by QRS » Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:27 am

mahlemiut wrote:Sure, but you're just not allowed to leech. Why TG allow that in the first place though, is somewhat odd.
I think they said that they allowed that cause playing on these settings are so hard, that you are actually damn good if you manage to stay alive while leeching :)

Still odd to allow it though...
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Post by LN2 » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:48 pm

I didn't agree with it...but the idea behind the new TP settings from TG were to make that leeching pretty much impossible or very limited.

Great players have reported that leeching techniques are still possible though....just far more difficult to do. Given the entire game is far more difficult though it still might pay to leech.

The vote on that issue was definitely split. Others like myself had ideas to put a limit on the #parachutes or semi-boss planes etc. you can pig out on for each time era. The lines would have been drawn where a little leeching would have been possible...but not a lot....where the top scores for the game would be those players able to play through a lot of eras.

Now the settings are so difficult I think most TP players won't even try to play it...especially in MAME at the TG settings.

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Time Pilot new TGTS

Post by Zhorik » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:58 am

They were trying to address the leeching problem on the game. The game naturally has HUGE leeching issues since it has no timers. Rather than trying to impose subjective leeching rules about how much leeching is too much, and rather than imposing an alternate leech-proof scoring scheme (e.g. 5 men only and bonus 10 Million per stage completed), they created these new ultra-hard settings and just said "leech if you can pull it off".

Leeching is probably still the easiest way to score high on these settings though. I submitted a score of 410K (but zeroed it) which is scored on the first stage (but not using parachute scabbing).

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Post by LN2 » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:21 pm

I am reopening the discussion of TP for TG staff. Please stay tuned.

It's clear using the high difficulty settings haven't changed this issue for TP.

There are a few other ways that were proposed to handle this issue...that don't involve adding some made-up bonus to each stage completed etc.

For example:

Put a limit on how many points can be scored per stage. This limit can be where some small degree of leeching would be possible...but not excessive leeching. Something along the lines of a max 100k per stage scored might work.

Another option is to limit the number of parachutes collected and semi-boss planes destroyed during each stage...again allowing for slight leeching..but nothing excessive...perhaps 10 of each as max.

I had a way I think would be pretty easy...always fire and be working toward completing the stage. A player who avoids shooting available enemy to hold out for a semi-boss or parachute would be in violation. If you are firing enemies at nearly all times and happen to collect parachutes and shoot semi-boss planes along the way...that's fine.

I think you could easily just state always fire...cuz even in getting parachutes and semi-boss planes your shots would kill at least some of the other enemies...putting a limit where you will reach where the boss comes out. The only thing then is limiting the time you can waste with the boss out. I think that is already covered by the TG leeching policy which states you must work toward completing levels. Avoiding shooting the boss plane would clearly violate this.

anyway...those were a few things on the table from the first discussion.
Personally I would like to see a difficulty just slightly above factory settings...but not ridiculous like "8".

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Post by The TJT » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:36 pm

Different settings for timepilot:

Code: Select all

                     diff           ships    extras
MAME DEFAULT          1              3       10,000    every 50,000  

TG -SETTINGS:
(Original)            3              3       20,000    every 60,000  
(New)                 8              3       20,000    every 60,000    
Zhorik, I suggest using TG (original), since most MARP inps are done on those settings, including 1st and 3rd places...That is if you want to submit a "clean" score at marp. :)
(why not mame default settings...honour thing, don't beat good scores with easier settings, right? :x)

Leeching will be spotted, not by counting parachutes or planes or with a watch, but by human jugdement, easy...

Thanks,
TJT- MARP regulation coordinator
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P.S. I agree that leeching looks to be possible with new TG settings, based on your inp. I doubt TG will allow that kind of leeching though, but that decision is up to TG
Last edited by The TJT on Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by LN2 » Wed Jan 05, 2005 9:20 pm

The TJT wrote:Zhorik, I suggest using TG (original)
I would consult Robert on this before you do any TP submissions.

I don't think submissions playing at the "original" will be accepted. That is there just to show what it originally was..and to have a separate track to still show the historical scores for TP...versus totally wiping them from existence.

It's a mess either way.

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Time Pilot TGTS

Post by Zhorik » Fri Jan 07, 2005 12:15 am

Thanks for the replies TJT and LN2. My main reason for posting the Time Pilot INP was that there was a thread over on the TG forums discussing leeching on the new TGTS as a theoretical possibility. I wanted to show that it was more than just theoretical, and that if the point was to prevent leeching, these settings don't do that. I wasn't trying to make a serious run at the MARP scores using these settings.

TJT, the MAME defaults actually seem to be Difficulty 1 rather than Difficulty 3. If I go back and do a "clean" recording I'll play nice and use old TG settings.

-gastrainga

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Post by Zhorik » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:31 am

The TJT wrote:Different settings for timepilot:

Code: Select all

                     diff           ships    extras
MAME DEFAULT          1              3       10,000    every 50,000  

TG -SETTINGS:
(Original)            3              3       20,000    every 60,000  
(New)                 8              3       20,000    every 60,000    
Zhorik, I suggest using TG (original), since most MARP inps are done on those settings, including 1st and 3rd places...That is if you want to submit a "clean" score at marp. :)
(why not mame default settings...honour thing, don't beat good scores with easier settings, right? :x)

Leeching will be spotted, not by counting parachutes or planes or with a watch, but by human jugdement, easy...

Thanks,
TJT- MARP regulation coordinator
----------

P.S. I agree that leeching looks to be possible with new TG settings, based on your inp. I doubt TG will allow that kind of leeching though, but that decision is up to TG
I actually went back and watched the top 3 scores on Time Pilot, and none of them use the old TG settings you listed (and that are listed on Mark Longridge's TGTS web page). As best as I can tell, The 1st and 2nd place scores both used MAME defaults of extras at 10K and every 50K and difficulty 1 (easiest). The 3rd place score used extras at 10K and every 50K and difficulty 3.

In addition the 1st place score has blatent leeching of about 155K on the first screen by avoiding shooting the mothership for about 6 or 7 minutes when it comes out. After that the play looks leech-free and is still a great recording.

-gastrainga

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Post by The TJT » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:45 am

Zhorik wrote:I actually went back and watched the top 3 scores on Time Pilot, and none of them use the old TG settings you listed (and that are listed on Mark Longridge's TGTS web page). As best as I can tell, The 1st and 2nd place scores both used MAME defaults of extras at 10K and every 50K and difficulty 1 (easiest). The 3rd place score used extras at 10K and every 50K and difficulty 3.
You got me there, I didn't watch the inps(they didn't playback at XP) :oops: My excuse is that description said "TG" :)
You are right though...watched now 1st and 3rd position scores. They are played with default mame settings, except 3rd is diff 3.

You are also right about default mame difficulty being 1, not 3 as I claimed earlier...I tested it with TG-mame35, which forced diff3(but still didn't force TG extra ship settings...)

So I think it's up to you what settings you want to use for MARP submission: mame default, TG new or TG original.
In addition the 1st place score has blatent leeching of about 155K on the first screen by avoiding shooting the mothership for about 6 or 7 minutes when it comes out. After that the play looks leech-free and is still a great recording.
Yes, seems he leeches from 25 000 to 180 000 = 155 000 points. edit...watching more, seems he leeches more than only at first level...Any ideas what the final score would be? Or would right thing be to "nuke" it?
Might be same kind of leeching at other Renzo's Time Pilot clone scores...

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Post by QRS » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:15 am

Nuke them.
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Post by Zhorik » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:30 am

I think zeroing it is a bit harsh since it is an old and "prestigious" score and even with the leeching it is still the best recording on MARP (although only slightly better than 2nd). It looks like he leeches about 155K on level 1, about 10K on level 3 and 30K on level 6, so about 195K total. He probably gets a net of 1 extra man out of the leeching.

He still reaches level 35 (and would have without the leeching also), which is one stage further than the 2nd place score which reaches level 34.

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Post by The TJT » Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:54 am

QRS wrote:Nuke them.
Someone got up with a wrong foot, hehehe :)

Ok, seriously...one for nuke one for adjustment...Others?

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Post by Zhorik » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:03 am

Renzo's spaceplt score probably just needs to be nuked. He does even more of this end of level leeching and on more levels. For example level 1 he leeches for about 125K, level 2 for about 15K, level 3 for about 190K, level 6 for 35K, level 8 for 20K, etc., up to level 16 for 40K. He reaches level 20 on this game with a score 390K higher than 2nd place which reached level 24 (and had no leeching). If this isn't nuked it should be adjusted down by at least 500-600K so that it drops down to 2nd.

-gastrainga

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